New look days of Noah and the sons of God

[Derf]

Okay, you suggest that but ...

I just don't think that matches our conversation. God created mankind as sexual beings and assigned them a task [a commandment], "Multiply and reproduce." It was a command to cleave and produce other flesh.


Yes, that is how Satan grows his kingdom and becomes a father. He lies and trick people. He did that to Woman and Adam. He became their lord and they became members of his fallen heavenly hordes. Not by cleaving and reproducing.


Oh, lots. Humanity was also cast away and confined to the ground, but Satan was powerful enough to be able to offer Christ the kingdoms of this earthly world if he would just submit to him. He was saying - you don't have to die to have these. I can give them to you now, but Christ resisted.
Wondering if people ever think about how Jesus told Peter, "Get behind me Satan," referred to Christ's experience with Satan on the high mountain. Peter thought surely Jesus would not have to die. Satan had insinuated that Jesus would not have to die to inherit the kingdoms of this world.

I have to wonder, "Just how did Satan think this offer was going to save him from his fate?" Oh well.


I had written:
You are correct there are no female angels mentioned in the OT. And none mentioned regarding mankind in the Garden either. We only get a glimpse of the one Son, but that does leave open the possibility of more sons.
And Derf asked:


I've been writing that I believe that Adam and Woman had, at least, one male child while in the Garden. I believe Adam developed the language for that event as he watched it take place. Why? There was a flurry of words that suddenly appear. Man, Woman, husband, wife, mother, Father.
Then there was a concept introduce: This is why a man [son] will cleave to his wife and they shall become one. Of course, like to write: And they shall become another one.

The one Son I mentioned above was a reference to that one. Not sure I meant to capitalize the "S" in son in that sentence.

I concluded: If they had delivered one son then there was/is the potential that they had more than one. This is why I suggest that there were sons in the Garden who were children of God just like their parents ... but since they were boys they could be called human sons of God ... versus angelic sons of God.

You are correct this concept ["Adam was alive at the time, but Eve wasn't his mother,"] is wrong.
Woman was not Adam's mother ... she WAS the mother of the new living one she had just bore.

I guess what you are suggesting is that Adam was "dead", so it excludes him already. I don't think Adam was dead yet. In terms of physical death, he's not dead. In terms if separation from God, he hadn't left the garden yet, God was right there.

BTW, Adam did not give Woman a new name until they were about to leave the Garden. Just before they left Adam proclaimed the truth. I will call her Eve --- because she WAS THE MOTHER of all the living. Past tense.

BTW there were several names given to the female mentioned in Genesis 1. Each had something to do with what had happened in her life.

Female had to do with her being an individual with a purpose and filled with potential.
Woman had to do with her being taken out of Adam in order to become his help meet to reproduce.
Wife Mother had to do with the manifestation of her purposes.
Eve had to do with what she had become: She was the mother of all the living.

It was no surprise when Even had other sons on earth - I think they would correctly be called sons of man by that time.

I just don't see why they would be called sons of God if Adam was their father.

 

[Ps82]

Yes. Moses, the author of Genesis, lived long after Adam and Eve.

It makes sense for him to have used past tense when referring to Eve.

Adam was charged by God with creating language ... naming things. He did quite a bit of that in the beginning.
Moses was telling us what Adam said the name Eve meant.

Adam changed Woman's name to Eve and he is the one who stated: She WAS the mother of all the living.

She actually had not had any daughters nor Cain Abel or Seth. She was to be that after they left the Garden.

Actually when one thinks about it ... she and Adam were man wife Father Mother and they were also to be the Father and mother of all humanoids in the future.

Their first child in the Garden was a SON, who was destined to leave his Father and Mother and cleave unto HIS wife.

That is what it seems to me he did when he left and went unto the daughters finally born to Adam and Eve on earth ... together they bore MEN of renown.

 

[Ps82]

I guess what you are suggesting is that Adam was "dead", so it excludes him already. I don't think Adam was dead yet. In terms of physical death, he's not dead. In terms if separation from God, he hadn't left the garden yet, God was right there.

I just don't see why they would be called sons of God if Adam was their father.

Derf, you had suggested this in your post: Lack of reproduction by no means eliminates the possibility of a being being a sexual being (no typo there).

I assumed the beings mentioned were angels who were not able to reproduce. Right? Well, I haven't studied that issue. Is there scripture I could check out?
Just on the face of the comment ... there are lots of human beings who have sex but they can't reproduce. Just saying.

Yes, Adam lived for a long... time. Even after being sent down to earth. I've never ruled him out.

In fact, I have read and heard people discuss charts that show Noah knew people who had known Adam personally when he was still alive. Adam died not too long before Noah was born and everyone before Noah were still living for so long. Over-lapping going on. There must have been lots of pretty current information about history still around even in Noah's day. And boy, everyone was doing lots of reproducing.

Derf queried: I just don't see why they would be called sons of God if Adam was their father.

It goes back to my understanding of what was going on in Psalm 82. When I grasped the dialogue it open the door to a number of truths. I guess I can share this here since it has been brought up and hinges on how I perceive Genesis 6 and sons of God.

Read Ps. 82 like a scene in a play where two people are taking to each other.
There is one being standing before the Most High God, who is his judge, presenting his own defense and a plea for fairness.
The one pleading his case begins his list of questions and accusations with this comment: How long will YE [God] judge unjustly?
After accusing God of being an unfair judge this being begins to throw the blame on others. Read it and you will notice who it is he is accusing, because PERSONS are mentioned and because of THEM the whole world/earth is out of course.

You probably already know who caused that. So, who is known is man's great accuser?

Well, during this trial involving this accuser of mankind and whether they are the ones God needs to be judging God says this:
Verse 6 I have said ye are gods [that would be the angels]; and ALL OF YOU are children of the most High.

Since I've concluded that Satan is the one on trial and as the accuser of mankind he has brought up man's role in making the world cursed... then I think I'm correct to say God's created children were/are men and angels.

Therefore "sons of God" can refer to angels and men ... men, at least, before the Fall.

Now, we become children of God [sons and daughters] by making our Lord our Savior.

 

[Derf]

Derf, you had suggested this in your post: Lack of reproduction by no means eliminates the possibility of a being being a sexual being (no typo there).

I assumed the beings mentioned were angels who were not able to reproduce. Right? Well, I haven't studied that issue. Is there scripture I could check out?
Just on the face of the comment ... there are lots of human beings who have sex but they can't reproduce. Just saying.

Yes, Adam lived for a long... time. Even after being sent down to earth. I've never ruled him out.

In fact, I have read and heard people discuss charts that show Noah knew people who had known Adam personally when he was still alive. Adam died not too long before Noah was born and everyone before Noah were still living for so long. Over-lapping going on. There must have been lots of pretty current information about history still around even in Noah's day. And boy, everyone was doing lots of reproducing.

Derf queried: I just don't see why they would be called sons of God if Adam was their father.

It goes back to my understanding of what was going on in Psalm 82. When I grasped the dialogue it open the door to a number of truths. I guess I can share this here since it has been brought up and hinges on how I perceive Genesis 6 and sons of God.

Read Ps. 82 like a scene in a play where two people are taking to each other.
There is one being standing before the Most High God, who is his judge, presenting his own defense and a plea for fairness.
The one pleading his case begins his list of questions and accusations with this comment: How long will YE [God] judge unjustly?
After accusing God of being an unfair judge this being begins to throw the blame on others. Read it and you will notice who it is he is accusing, because PERSONS are mentioned and because of THEM the whole world/earth is out of course.

You probably already know who caused that. So, who is known is man's great accuser?

Well, during this trial involving this accuser of mankind and whether they are the ones God needs to be judging God says this:
Verse 6 I have said ye are gods [that would be the angels]; and ALL OF YOU are children of the most High.

Since I've concluded that Satan is the one on trial and as the accuser of mankind he has brought up man's role in making the world cursed... then I think I'm correct to say God's created children were/are men and angels.

Therefore "sons of God" can refer to angels and men ... men, at least, before the Fall.

Now, we become children of God [sons and daughters] by making our Lord our Savior.

Seems like we need to discuss Ps 82 in depth, then.
Let's start, counterintuitively, with vs 7:
Psalm 82:7 NKJV — But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”

This indeed makes it seem like someone other than mere men are being addressed. So move up to vs 6:
Psalm 82:6 NKJV — I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
This appears to explain who is being addressed, that they are called "gods" by the speaker, who is some type of judge, judging those who are called "gods", and sentencing them to death as men.

The next section, working backwards still, explains why they are being judged:
Psalm 82:2-5 NKJV — How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked. They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
I could be wrong, but judgment of humans (like the "fatherless") during the time the psalm was written, was never put in the hands of gods born before the flood, who would have died in the flood. Rather righteous judgment is expected from the leaders of tribes or villages or kingdoms. Thus, it appears that this Psalm is talking about men, currently alive, who are ruling over other men.

Jess confirms this for us when He quotes this psalm.
John 10:34-35 NKJV — Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? “If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

The people addressed, according to Jesus are the same people to whom the law (the word of God) was given, i.e., the Hebrews (or possibly a subset of them who were leaders).

This doesn't seem to allow for the other interpretation that creates men in the garden besides Adam and Eve.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Adam said it .... and he was in the present. Just saying.

Um. No.

Are you confusing Genesis 2:23 with Genesis 3:20?

And Adam said:“This is now bone of my bonesAnd flesh of my flesh;She shall be called Woman,Because she was taken out of Man.”

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 2:23 - New King James Version

And Adam said: “This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.”

www.biblegateway.com

And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 3:20 - New King James Version

And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

www.biblegateway.com

Adam is not quoted in Genesis 3:20, only recorded as having named his wife Eve. The author of Genesis is the one who gave the reason, that being: "because she was the mother of all living."

Adam was charged by God with creating language...

No.

Language already existed.

In Chapter 1 alone:
- Then God said, "Let there be light."
- God called the light Day . . . the darkness He called Night.
- Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."
- And God called the firmament Heaven.
- Then God said, "let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"...
- And God called the dry land Earth . . . the gathering together of the waters He called Seas.
- Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind whose seed is in itself, on the earth"...
- Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"...
- Then God said, "Let the waters about with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens."
- And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
- Then God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"...
- Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
- ... And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
- And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"...

For more information, see:

The Origin of Language | KGOV.com

kgov.com

naming things.

Yes. Naming the animals which God brought to him.

Specifically:

Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 2:19-20 - New King James Version

Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of...

www.biblegateway.com

The Bible does not record him naming anything else, other than Eve, later.

He did quite a bit of that in the beginning.

Only what the Bible says he named.

Moses was telling us what Adam said the name Eve meant.

No.

Read the verse again, carefully this time:

And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 3:20 - New King James Version

And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

www.biblegateway.com

It doesn't say "And Adam said, 'I am naming you Eve, because you are the mother of all living.'"

It says "And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living."

Moses was telling us what she was. Not Adam.

It's a narrative verse, not a quotation verse.

From Moses' perspective, she was indeed the mother of all living.

Adam changed Woman's name to Eve

Correct.

and he is the one who stated: She WAS the mother of all the living.

This is simply false.

Moses, not Adam, wrote down, said, recorded, etc, "because she was the mother of all living."

Adam simply named her.

She actually had not had any daughters nor Cain Abel or Seth. She was to be that after they left the Garden.

I'd advise you to look up the history of New York and when it was named, verses when it was founded.

Referring to things by their names before they are named such is rather common.

Actually when one thinks about it ... she and Adam were man wife Father Mother

No need to capitalize father or mother.

and they were also to be the Father and mother of all humanoids in the future.

Uh, no.

Adam and Eve are not the parents of Michael, Gabriel, nor all the other humanoid angels, nor are they the father and mother of their grandchildren, or great-grandchildren, or great-great-grandchildren, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

Their first child in the Garden was a SON, who was destined to leave his Father and Mother and cleave unto HIS wife.

If that is what was meant by the verse, then we would have no foundation for marriage, between one man and one woman, in a committed relationship.

No, the verse does not say that. It says, and this is Moses writing, not Moses recording Adam's words:

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 2:24 - New King James Version

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

www.biblegateway.com

That is what it seems to me he did when he left and went unto the daughters finally born to Adam and Eve on earth ... together they bore MEN of renown.

Except that's not what it says.

Cain married one of his sisters. Seth married one of his sisters. If they had brothers, they married their sisters, and humanity thus descended from Adam and Eve (who was the mother of all living).

The "men of renown" did not come until later.

See https://kgov.com/giants and https://reasons.org/explore/blogs/voices/who-are-the-men-of-renown-in-genesis-6-part-1

 

[Ps82]

Seems like we need to discuss Ps 82 in depth, then.
Let's start, counterintuitively, with vs 7:
Psalm 82:7 NKJV — But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”

This indeed makes it seem like someone other than mere men are being addressed. So move up to vs 6:
Psalm 82:6 NKJV — I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
This appears to explain who is being addressed, that they are called "gods" by the speaker, who is some type of judge, judging those who are called "gods", and sentencing them to death as men.

Great. The way to find the appositives for the words "gods" and the antecedent of the pronoun "you" is important. And finding these is totally based on understanding the content of the event.

First to make it easier I will just say I agree with you that gods refers to angels. And Ps 82 makes it clear to me that an angel is standing in front of the judge. Now, knowing the identity of the judge is easy. Ps 82:1 God ... he judgeth among the gods.

Asking a question makes it easier to move forward:

• Who would God be judging in a trail situation?

According to the major things which happened in Genesis 3 that changed the whole world and set the destiny for men and angels, I would guess there is either an angel or a man on trial. Since the term "gods" is mentioned I feel sure there is an angelic being standing before the judge.

• Now what would someone be doing if they were standing before a judge? Well, pleading their defense.
• So who would be the individual pleading his own defense regarding things that happened in Genesis 3 that would be called a"god."

Obviously Satan. The one known as a liar and an accuser of mankind. Now, here is where identities start popping out regarding "gods" and "all of you."

The next section, working backwards still, explains why they are being judged:
Psalm 82:2-5 NKJV — How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked. They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.

Watch: Satan's defense is to throw blame on others. Claim he is getting an unfair trial... if not convincing then thank others with him in his fate.
First: Satan has the nerve to accuse God of being an unfair judge ... Does he tell us what he thinks God is doing wrong? Yes.

• God you show partiality to the wicked. [Whom would Satan think were wicked instead of himself ? Hmmm?]
• God you defend the poor and fatherless and do justice to the afflicted and needy. [Hmmm isn't that a good thing for a good God to do?
• God you deliver them - the poor and needy; [Now, who are the needy who God has a deliverance plan?]
• God you free them from the hand of the wicked. [Think of the gook of Genesis and how many times God warned, protected, and rescued his chosen ones... like Noah, Abraham, Jacob, King David ... ]
• God, THEY do not know nor understand. THEY walk in darkness/cluelessness.

Well, God then stops Satan in his tracks and gives his opinion as well as addressing his plans for both Satan and the ones Satan has mentioned.

I know you have figure this out. Humans.

He tells Satan You are going to die like Men. God is talking about both at this point in the trial.

Now, let make sure about their identities: gods are the angelic being ... and ALL of you refers to mankind as well as angels. Satan wanted to pretend/lie that it was only mankind who made the whole world out of sorts.

I could be wrong, but judgment of humans (like the "fatherless") during the time the psalm was written, was never put in the hands of gods born before the flood, who would have died in the flood. Rather righteous judgment is expected from the leaders of tribes or villages or kingdoms. Thus, it appears that this Psalm is talking about men, currently alive, who are ruling over other men.

I don't think Satan and his angels have any power to judge us. Scripture says that he as allocated judgment of the world into the hands of our risen Lord. Also, I don't think scripture bears out that angels would have died in the flood. Their death will be what is called the second death/Lake of Fire. Ps. 82 is not about current events at the time of King David. It is a retelling of a trial that happened long ago... before God Almighty.

Jess confirms this for us when He quotes this psalm.
John 10:34-35 NKJV — Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? “If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

This does not change my approach ... Yes, God was speaking to the "gods/angels" and especially to Satan ... but the phrase "ALL of you" broadens the scope of his final judgment for men and angels. They would face the same death. God is a fair judge!

The people addressed, according to Jesus are the same people to whom the law (the word of God) was given, i.e., the Hebrews (or possibly a subset of them who were leaders).

The law was explained to Satan and fairly administered. Satan heard it, knows it, and still hates humanity. Wants to possess our souls when we die and take as many as he can to the Lake of Fire with him.

This doesn't seem to allow for the other interpretation that creates men in the garden besides Adam and Eve.

I don't see what you are meaning here ... sorry.

 

[7djengo7]

After accusing God of being an unfair judge this being begins to throw the blame on others.

Contrary to your continual brazen lying -- your eager service to your father Satan -- in Psalm 82, no one is accusing God of judging unjustly. Even you, yourself, know that (as has been clearly pointed out to you already) your claim -- that Psalm 82 says Satan is accusing God of judging unjustly -- is manifestly false. Your continual inability and failure to respond rationally to said pointing out is your constant conceding to the fact that Psalm 82 does NOT say Satan is accusing God of judging unjustly.

Psalms 82:1-2 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

Try to understand how much of a lying fool you advertise yourself to be by your asinine assertion of the falsehood that "How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked?" is something being spoken to God by your father Satan.

 

[7djengo7]

After accusing God of being an unfair judge this being begins to throw the blame on others.

Psalms 82:1-2 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

By your false claims that 1) Satan is the one saying "How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked?" and that 2) he is saying it to God, you are falsely claiming that 3) Satan is addressing God by the plural pronoun, "ye". Can you find for us any other instance(s) of the plural pronoun "ye" in the Bible that you'd be willing to claim are addressing God?

Oh, and don't think I am not aware of the glaring fact that your continued silence to my questions and criticism of your ravings is because even you know that you haven't a shred of hope of responding rationally to them. I point this out in case you have deluded yourself into imagining you have fooled anyone into thinking your silence to my posts is because I seem "mean" and "negative" to you.

 

[Ps82]

Are you confusing Genesis 2:23 with Genesis 3:20?

No, I'm not confusing the two. So glad you asked this question. It gives me a chance to share more about how I see Gen. 1,2,3.
Of course, I differ with some things I've typically heard. Here goes:

PART ONE: FIRST ABOUT GEN ONE AND TWO ... THEN ABOUT GEN.3:20 at the bottom.
Gen 1 is pretty much a separate event from Gen. 2: 4 ...
Gen. 1 is where God is working as an invisible spirit. I base this on Gen.1:2 where it says:

• The earth had no form/shape.
• The earth was void ...nothing existing in or on it.
• The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [to me waters symbolically have to do with life and God is life.]
• Therefore it is the invisible Living Spiritual ONE God who is working in Gen. 1.
• He is establishing creating and manifesting certain things. Once LIGHT is brought forth then that opened the door for possible visibility.
• He even established the function for male/female/humanity even before they received a bodily form.
• Some things, particularly, like male/female, even though they existed, had not yet been manifested visually. They had their first measure of life[spiritual] in God,

My conclusions are:

1. The Spirit of God worked for the first 6 days, then he stopped and rested.
2. Since Moses was the author of this first book ... and since The ONE God, who appeared to Moses, repeatedly revealed HIS chosen NAME to him ... then Moses knew exactly when to use that NAME as he recorded history.
3. Now, when God changes a name it points to significant things.
4. Between Gen. 1 and Gen. 2:4 The Spirit went from elohim to The LORD/YHWH.
5. Gen. 2:4 These are the generations [times] of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
6. That 7th Day was when the Spirit rested and the presence of God, named LORD, began his face to face works within the world.

The question is this: So, who is The LORD?
Well, HE is God who showed up visually in The Garden - with a bodily shape/a super natural image ... walking and talking with Adam.

The LORD/YHWH showed up in order to manifest things which had already been established within HIM/ HIS Spirit.
Male/female became a complete Adam/soul when The LORD imparted the living spirits of male and female into their formed body [Gen. 2:7], and then mankind/Adam went about naming these things as they where shown to him [Gen. 2:19]. Naming the plants, animals, and even actions, such as the arrival of Woman and of their cleaving and their having a son, who would one day repeat that cycle, were part of his job.

Why did humanity have the right to be considered 'a son of God?'
Mankind was conceived unseen within the Spirit of God and then was brought forth into the world favoring the image and likeness of his Father, who was the walking talking visible presence belonging to the Spirit of God.

PART TWO: Genesis 3:20

Genesis 2: 21-13 [I, P82 ,have added some highlights and a comment to what JudgeRightly had quoted.]
And Adam said:“This is now [Moses quoting what Adam said in presence tense] bone of my bonesand flesh of my flesh;She shall be called Woman,Because she was taken out of Man.”

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 2:23 - New King James Version

And Adam said: “This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.”

www.biblegateway.com

Yes, Adam revealed that Woman had been manifested and brought right then/NOW before his eyes... and it is at that now-moment [present time] he gave her a name and formed its definition.

When did this now-moment take place in Gen. 2?
A time when no one had yet sinned nor been kicked out. We really have no clue how long they lived sinless in the Garden... it seems long enough to understand cleaving.

Genesis 3:20 [I, P82 ,have added some highlights and a comment to what JudgeRightly had quoted.]

[As they were about to leave the Garden] And Adam called [at that moment] his wife’s name Eve, because she was [past tense] the mother of all living.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 3:20 - New King James Version

And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

www.biblegateway.com

This is a totally different event from Gen. 2:21-23.
Moses may have been recording history for us but he wrote what Adam said in the moments things happened. Moses wasn't writing about his day, but the days of Adam, Woman, and the LORD.

Woman was a mother so Adam gave her a new name?
Why might he have done this? Possibly because it lets humanity know that she WAS ALREADY A MOTHER.

A mother of whom?
I've concluded: She WAS the Mother of all those already/currently living. These who would have had the right to be called human"sons of God.'

Adam is not quoted in Genesis 3:20, only recorded as having named his wife Eve. The author of Genesis is the one who gave the reason, that being: "because she was the mother of all living."

No, Adam gave the reasons and Moses told about the events as they would have happend in the time frame of Adam's day.

You have written a long and interesting post. I'll have to get back to the rest of your points later. Keep in mind I'm not trying to be argumentative ... but I am trying to present a new way of looking at the sons of God and who they might have been in Noah's day.

 

[Derf]

No, I'm not confusing the two. So glad you asked this question. It gives me a chance to share more about how I see Gen. 1,2,3.
Of course, I differ with some things I've typically heard. Here goes:

PART ONE: FIRST ABOUT GEN ONE AND TWO ... THEN ABOUT GEN.3:20 at the bottom.
Gen 1 is pretty much a separate event from Gen. 2: 4 ...
Gen. 1 is where God is working as an invisible spirit. I base this on Gen.1:2 where it says:

• The earth had no form/shape.
• The earth was void ...nothing existing in or on it.
• The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [to me waters symbolically have to do with life and God is life.]
• Therefore it is the invisible Living Spiritual ONE God who is working in Gen. 1.
• He is establishing creating and manifesting certain things. Once LIGHT is brought forth then that opened the door for possible visibility.
• He even established the function for male/female/humanity even before they received a bodily form.
• Some things, particularly, like male/female, even though they existed, had not yet been manifested visually. They had their first measure of life[spiritual] in God,

My conclusions are:

1. The Spirit of God worked for the first 6 days, then he stopped and rested.
2. Since Moses was the author of this first book ... and since The ONE God, who appeared to Moses, repeatedly revealed HIS chosen NAME to him ... then Moses knew exactly when to use that NAME as he recorded history.
3. Now, when God changes a name it points to significant things.
4. Between Gen. 1 and Gen. 2:4 The Spirit went from elohim to The LORD/YHWH.
5. Gen. 2:4 These are the generations [times] of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
6. That 7th Day was when the Spirit rested and the presence of God, named LORD, began his face to face works within the world.

The question is this: So, who is The LORD?
Well, HE is God who showed up visually in The Garden - with a bodily shape/a super natural image ... walking and talking with Adam.

The LORD/YHWH showed up in order to manifest things which had already been established within HIM/ HIS Spirit.
Male/female became a complete Adam/soul when The LORD imparted the living spirits of male and female into their formed body [Gen. 2:7], and then mankind/Adam went about naming these things as they where shown to him [Gen. 2:19]. Naming the plants, animals, and even actions, such as the arrival of Woman and of their cleaving and their having a son, who would one day repeat that cycle, were part of his job.

Why did humanity have the right to be considered 'a son of God?'
Mankind was conceived unseen within the Spirit of God and then was brought forth into the world favoring the image and likeness of his Father, who was the walking talking visible presence belonging to the Spirit of God.

PART TWO: Genesis 3:20



Yes, Adam revealed that Woman had been manifested and brought right then/NOW before his eyes... and it is at that now-moment [present time] he gave her a name and formed its definition.

When did this now-moment take place in Gen. 2?
A time when no one had yet sinned nor been kicked out. We really have no clue how long they lived sinless in the Garden... it seems long enough to understand cleaving.



This is a totally different event from Gen. 2:21-23.
Moses may have been recording history for us but he wrote what Adam said in the moments things happened. Moses wasn't writing about his day, but the days of Adam, Woman, and the LORD.

Woman was a mother so Adam gave her a new name?
Why might he have done this? Possibly because it lets humanity know that she WAS ALREADY A MOTHER.

A mother of whom?
I've concluded: She WAS the Mother of all those already/currently living. These who would have had the right to be called human"sons of God.'


No, Adam gave the reasons and Moses told about the events as they would have happend in the time frame of Adam's day.

You have written a long and interesting post. I'll have to get back to the rest of your points later. Keep in mind I'm not trying to be argumentative ... but I am trying to present a new way of looking at the sons of God and who they might have been in Noah's day.

The problem as I see it is that you are all over the place, so you are having a hard time focusing on the topic you say you are trying to address. But I think the reason you are all over the place is that you are shoe-horning all kinds of speculation into scripture where it doesn't fit--without spiritualizing all meaning out of the words. Your methods are ripe for moving you away from biblical truth.

And there's no way to argue against a spiritualized meaning when it doesn't directly comport with the actual text. "No way to argue against" means your view is impossible to refute--not because it's true but because there's no real connection to the text.

 

[Ps82]

How do you delete an accidental "reply"???

 

[ok doser]

How do you delete an accidental "reply"???

Bottom left. Click on the three dots next to Report.

 

[Ps82]

Thus, it appears that this Psalm is talking about men, currently alive, who are ruling over other men.

Jess confirms this for us when He quotes this psalm.
John 10:34-35 NKJV — Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? “If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

The people addressed, according to Jesus are the same people to whom the law (the word of God) was given, i.e., the Hebrews (or possibly a subset of them who were leaders).

This doesn't seem to allow for the other interpretation that creates men in the garden besides Adam and Eve.

Derf said:

This doesn't seem to allow for the other interpretation that creates men in the garden besides Adam and Eve.

My conclusions:

• God did not create other men in the Garden.
• The LORD did not need to breathe into the nostrils of any other individuals in the Garden.
• Because Adam/male/female had already been given the command and the ability to carry out their purpose of reproducing.
• This is exactly what Adam [the Father of the human language] was describing as it was happening. Gen. 2:24
• His vocabulary grew quite a bit and quickly that day.
• This son [versus a daughter], which they had, would leave his mother [Woman] and father [Adam] and have relations with his chosen wife and [then] become one.
• Now, ONE what? ... Another human like them.

Questions for you regarding whether Ps82 is talking about God judging over the gods versus earthly men judging over other earthy men:

• Who do you think the "gods" are? Judges like Samson, Deborah? Ps82 says it was God himself.
• Why would God say it is wrong for earthy judges to defend the poor and fatherless? Wrong to do justice to those afflicted?
• Wouldn't that be a good thing to do and not behaviors warranting punishment?
• Why would earthly judges be sentenced to death for being good judges?
• Who would be the one thinking it is unfair for God to be so merciful to the ones who caused the earth to be out of course?

It is obvious by the content that the one speaking before God is referring to a specific time and the results of sin.
It was Adam's/mankind's original sin, which led to the curse upon the ground/whole world ...and the condition of humanity, once they had been kicked out of the Garden.
Ps 82 is about:

• God as Judge.
• Satan pleading his own defense by accusing God of judging unjustly... and saying that it was mankind/Adam who was the criminal.
• God sentences lost angels and humans to the same death when all comes to an end. [which will be The Lake of Fire.]
• Then God profoundly proclaims the mission and the reward of someone special.
• Who? The one God who would ARISE and have the authority to judge and also inherit the nations.

 

[7djengo7]

I've concluded: She WAS the Mother of all those already/currently living. These who would have had the right to be called human"sons of God.'

You've concluded nothing; you're not a rationally-thinking person. According to what you have been asserting in your insanity, Eve was mother to Adam (despite the glaring fact that Adam had no mother), and to herself (despite the glaring fact that Eve had no mother), since Adam and Eve were all the people living on earth until Cain was born.

 

[7djengo7]

Satan pleading his own defense by accusing God of judging unjustly... and saying that it was mankind/Adam who was the criminal.

@Derf, in case you haven't already, please note that @Ps82 is asserting these two falsehoods, over and over and over: that 1) the words of Psalm 82:2 ("How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked?") are being spoken by Satan, and that 2) they are being addressed to God. I've already two or three times pointed out to @Ps82 the facts that A) those words are not being spoken by Satan, and that B) they are not being addressed to God. Yet, because @Ps82 knows @Ps82 has no hope of responding rationally to either of those facts, @Ps82 simply remains silent to them, continuing simply to run with reasserting, over and over and over, @Ps82's cherished falsehoods, 1 and 2.

You can easily see that @Ps82 is a brazen liar in that, out of the one side of his/her mouth, he/she says:

I study the King James Bible. Perhaps you are spending too much time investigating those movements and not enough in King James.

Whereas, when trying to sell his/her asinine falsehood about Psalm 82:2, @Ps82 deliberately does not quote Psalm 82:2 from the KJV, because it contains the inconvenient (to @Ps82) second-person, plural pronoun, "ye", and deliberately chooses to quote, instead, from a version that contains (instead of "ye") the ambiguous pronoun, "you" (singular or plural? which?), which pathetic sleight of hand I documented above.

@Ps82, then, is building his/her fantasy regarding the 82nd Psalm on his/her assertion of falsehoods regarding verse 2. And, notice @Ps82's irrational habit of addressing others as though he/she imagines they, too, take @Ps82'S falsehoods regarding verse 2 to be axioms.

 

[Ps82]

...

Language already existed.

Well, yes... God had a language of some sort. In Fact, the WORD was God and was with God and God spoke things into existence.

QUESTION: But does that rule out that humanity didn't?
The human language began with Gen. 2:19. Moses pointed out the exact time this began.
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed [versus created. These things were created in Gen.1but not manifested] every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and bought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature,that was the name thereof.

Now, someone might say: Adam only named the created and manifested plants and creatures/animals, but one should remember human beings were creatures too.

This is why Adam began using words to describe the female of humanity. She was a creature/a created being presented to him. She was first known by the noun/name "female" in Gen.1. But, when Adam saw her, he called her Woman due to how she arrived as an individual. Then Adam renamed her repeatedly in this order ... wife, mother ... and finally Eve. All for good reasons and order is important. She was a wife and mother before she was renamed the last time as "She WAS the mother of all the living -Eve."

In Chapter 1 alone:
- Then God said, "Let there be light."
- God called the light Day . . . the darkness He called Night.
- Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."
- And God called the firmament Heaven.
- Then God said, "let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"...
- And God called the dry land Earth . . . the gathering together of the waters He called Seas.
- Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind whose seed is in itself, on the earth"...
- Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"...
- Then God said, "Let the waters about with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens."
- And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
- Then God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"...
- Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
- ... And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
- And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"...

For more information, see:

The Origin of Language | KGOV.com

kgov.com

I'm aware of what God the Spirit did in Genesis 1, but Gen. 2:4 begins what is called "the generation when..." This is a new time period/era ... when The LORD/YHWH began to work within creation in a hands-on face-to-face manner. He formed from the dust of the ground/the elements from which creation was formed, all the bodily parts of a man's body. BTW, is it any wonder that Jesus chose to use the ground plus water/life from his/God's own mouth to form functioning eyeballs for a man who had none from birth? It was He, as the WORD, and the Father who worked together on the 7th day to bring forth created things like eyeballs.

Yes. Naming the animals which God brought to him...

The Bible does not record him naming anything else, other than Eve, later.

Repeat: She was first called female - Gen.1
Adam called her: Woman [a proper noun], then wife and mother [general nouns] ... and lastly Eve [another proper name]. All of them listing nuances of who she was as an individual.

Has anyone ever wondered why Jesus addressed his mother as Woman from the cross, instead of Mary? My thoughts: Because Mary fulfilled the reproduction of the seed which would crush Satan.

We, today, could not grasp that insight unless Adam had named female WOMAN. Adam established the one human language which worked until God confused that language to get humanity to spread out around the earth after the Flood.

Moses, not Adam, wrote down, said, recorded, etc, "because she was the mother of all living."

Adam simply named her.

Well, I agree Moses did write that she WAS the mother.... and he wrote that because God revealed to him that this was Adam said.

I'd advise you to look up the history of New York and when it was named, verses when it was founded.

Referring to things by their names before they are named such is rather common.



No need to capitalize father or mother.

I didn't know that I capitalized wife, father or mother. If I did, I will try to watch that. Yet, what is the definition of a common noun? Answer: a word that names a person, place, or thing. A proper noun like Woman and Eve is a little different.

Why do I deduce Woman is a proper noun? Answer: Because Jesus did not address his mother by her proper name, Mary, but he addressed her as Woman.

Adam and Eve are not the parents of Michael, Gabriel,

I've NEVER suggested that. Adam and Woman would have only produced men/sons ... and later daughters on earth.
This is why the sons of God, in Noah's day, who had been born unto Adam and Woman in the Garden went down unto the daughters of born unto Adam and Eve on the present day earth produced only MEN OF RENOWN.

The "gods/angels" were not given this ability to reproduce with women.
God gave the children of God, also known as sons of God[Ps 82:6], that command - to multiply and reproduce.

No, the verse does not say that. It says, and this is Moses writing, not Moses recording Adam's words:

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 2:24 - New King James Version

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

www.biblegateway.com

Well, Adam and Woman did produce ONE FLESH. It was a boy, who would leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife and repeat the process Adam had witnessed and described.

Except that's not what it says.

Cain married one of his sisters. Seth married one of his sisters. If they had brothers, they married their sisters, and humanity thus descended from Adam and Eve (who was the mother of all living).

I believe that happened for sure.
So, do you think these MEN of RENOWN were freaks? Does being a giant make one a super-natural freak?
I don't assume that. Special and renown...probably.

The "men of renown" did not come until later.

Of course there had to be some cleaving ... and multiplying before some of them grew to become famous and perhaps leaders in their own rights.

 

[7djengo7]

Well, yes... God had a language of some sort. In Fact, the WORD was God and was with God and God spoke things into existence.

QUESTION: But does that rule out that humanity didn't?
The human language began with Gen. 2:19.

Language is language. What (if anything) do you mean by your phrase, "the human language"? God spoke to Adam using language, and Adam understood it, and spoke the same to God, God understanding it. So, your extra-Biblical phrases, "a language of some sort" and "the human language", are ridiculous and useless at best.

What exactly do you mean by saying language "began with Genesis 2:19"?

 

[7djengo7]

The human language began with Gen. 2:19.

What silliness! You ignore the fact that the preceding three verses record Adam already using language -- the very language used by God (seen in the bold text):

Genesis 2:16-18 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

So, again, what do you mean by saying language "began with Genesis 2:19"? Just because you suppose Adam hadn't said a word before he first called some creature something, you would claim that's when man began using language, that he had never used language prior to then? Even if that were the first time Adam ever spoke a word, verses 16 and 17 make it perfectly clear that he had already, before then, used language -- again, the very same language God used.

 

[Ps82]

I think this is a good question. From a quick online Bible search, "sons of men" is used in several books in the Old Testament, including Genesis. And also in a couple places in the NT. So there's that..



I'm no expert. But it seems to me that men are only called sons of God if they are sons of the resurrection.

Luke 20:34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

To me "of this age" refers to the time between the Fall and expulsion from the Garden and to this day. The sons of this age refers to mortal sons of Adam.

Yet, there is another "age" coming. The age of the Resurrection. After the resurrection of those who are worthy, things will be different. The saints will be like angels and there will be no more marriage and no further death for them.

If I've learned correctly ... only people of this age can consider themselves currently sons of God if they have received the gift of the Holy Spirit and made Lord Jesus the Lord over their lives.

Yet, Psalm 82:6 makes it clear there was a time when God called ALL his created sentient beings his children. "ALL" included men and angels. Watch how Ps 82:6 mentions 'gods,' which is just another way to mention angels, and He mentions men as well.

6 I [God] have said, "Ye [Satan plus your followers] are gods [super-natural angelic beings]; AND ALL OF YOU are children of the most High.

Knowing what is going on in this event helps you know who is included in the ALL OF YOU.
Satan is pleading his own defense before God his judge. His main thrust is to accuse God of being an unfair judge. To prove his point he questions God about how long he will treat humanity with mercy ... for Satan wants God to admit he is being partial toward mankind. God seems to treat mankind like they are his pets/favorites.

So the topic here is who is really guilty or the guiltiest. Satan and his rebellious band or Adam and Woman/humanity?

This is why God the judge says: I have said, "Ye are gods[the angels]; and ALL OF YOU[the gods and mankind] are children of [ME] the most High.

God being a fair judge ultimately sentenced them to the same death ... called The Lake of Fire.
Yet he promised Adam and Woman that she would bring forth the seed that would crush Satan's head - a Savior.
Satan hates humanity because of their chance at redemption.

Well, Ps82 reveals that angels and men were once called children of God... and if any happen to be males of the human kind born before the Fall that would make them sons of God." I think these sons of God born to Adam and Woman before the Fall would be the ones who came to choose wives, marry, and produce MEN of renown.

The Bible is calling us "sons of God" to convey to us, that we will be resurrected and then made like the angels who ARE called sons of God. We will be like them. We will be equal to them.

Agree ... but until then humans are fatherless, poor, and needy.

But the idea that the angels are called "sons of God" is not something that is explained over and over again in the New Testament. So I don't think that Jesus was preaching to anyone who thought that "sons of God" might also sometimes mean "sons of Adam" or "sons of men".

Yes, angels are children of God; therefore, aka-sons of God- especially if they have not been cast down to earth with mankind. Most people are accustomed to calling them the devil and his demon spirits.

It's clear in the New Testament that angels are called "sons of God"
It's also clear in Job that angels are called "sons of God"
There's several thousands of years of history between Job and the New Testament so I think that if "sons of God" ever meant something akin to "Adams other sons" or "People who lived in the Garden of Eden" ect., then we would have a clearer example of that somewhere..

I believe angels are called gods, children of God, and sons of God. All apply to them.
I don't believe angels are sons of Adam and Woman. They bore the human kind of flesh.
I believe that children of God and sons of God applied to humanity before the Fall.
I am trusting that, at this time, all "saved humanity" can be called sons and daughters of God and or children of God.

 

[Derf]

@Derf, in case you haven't already, please note that @Ps82 is asserting these two falsehoods, over and over and over: that 1) the words of Psalm 82:2 ("How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked?") are being spoken by Satan, and that 2) they are being addressed to God.

Thanks for pointing that out.

@Ps82, is that how you see that verse? I noticed you didn't address my assertion that Jesus tells us the passage refers to men as "gods" and God doing the speaking. Would you like to now?

I've already two or three times pointed out to @Ps82 the facts that A) those words are not being spoken by Satan, and that B) they are not being addressed to God. Yet, because @Ps82 knows @Ps82 has no hope of responding rationally to either of those facts, @Ps82 simply remains silent to them, continuing simply to run with reasserting, over and over and over, @Ps82's cherished falsehoods, 1 and 2.

You can easily see that @Ps82 is a brazen liar in that, out of the one side of his/her mouth, he/she says:

Whereas, when trying to sell his/her asinine falsehood about Psalm 82:2, @Ps82 deliberately does not quote Psalm 82:2 from the KJV, because it contains the inconvenient (to @Ps82) second-person, plural pronoun, "ye", and deliberately chooses to quote, instead, from a version that contains (instead of "ye") the ambiguous pronoun, "you" (singular or plural? which?), which pathetic sleight of hand I documented above.

Yes, that seems disingenuous, doesn't it.

@Ps82, then, is building his/her fantasy regarding the 82nd Psalm on his/her assertion of falsehoods regarding verse 2. And, notice @Ps82's irrational habit of addressing others as though he/she imagines they, too, take @Ps82'S falsehoods regarding verse 2 to be axioms.

That's a common problem around here.