This death is not just of your flesh, it is the death your soul. When the light goes out you're still there.
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This death is not just of your flesh, it is the death your soul. When the light goes out you're still there.
A thinking person, let alone one who is "overshadowed by cognitive bias driven by religious indoctrination and fear," (by the way, Proverbs 9:10) would be able to conceive of a way that the phrases 'Satan caused David to number Israel' and 'God caused David to number Israel' could not contradict.
For example, one way that they would not contradict is thus:
God commanded Satan to cause David to number Israel.
One writer give the perspective of God being the root cause of David numbering Israel.
Another writer gives the perspective of Satan (although being secondary) being the cause of David numbering Israel.
Therefore:
The two phrases, 'Satan caused David to number Israel' and 'God caused David to number Israel' are not inherently contradictory, which means that your assertion above...
| a contradiction as plain and obvious as contradictions come |
... is merely question begging.
So, Guyver, could you respond, please, to this portion of djengo's post?
Oh, and this is an appeal to ridicule...
7djengo7
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Nah. The explanation that you were cowardly is better, inasmuch as it's the true explanation.
If you're satisfied with your failure to deal with the question I posed for you, though, why then, far be it from me to waste much of my time trying to coax you away from your happy place.
7djengo7
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Thanks, JR! You jumped in and did some of the work I was, admittedly, too lazy to do.
And? Why would you be criticizing that? You literally insult people for kicks.
PS. Why are you even posting in this thread?
You definitely should not waste any of your time here.
A thing is contradictory when different things are being said of the same thing.
By definition - Contradiction - noun.
a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another.
"the proposed new system suffers from a set of internal contradictions"
a person, thing, or situation in which inconsistent elements are present.
"the paradox of using force to overcome force is a real contradiction"
the statement of a position opposite to one already made.
God causing David to sin, and Satan causing David to sin is the obvious contradiction that I posted. Specifically, two things said about the same thing that are in conflict.
The fact that you or any other person would like to attempt to "explain" the contradiction is beside the point. The point is that a contradiction was made, and posted as a contradiction - which it is.
PS. I would add that the explanation you and 7djengo7 accept as the solution to the contradiction should be theologically very troubling for you.....if you believe the bible.
James chapter 1 verse 13 states, "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone."
Now, you'd like readers to believe that though God himself would never tempt anyone to sin, he would be OK with making the devil do it.
You can't see how that would violate right principles that God himself above all other beings would uphold?
Paying someone to kill someone is called being an accomplice or accessory to murder and as such, people have been tried and been convicted for felony murder. So, not only the murderer was guilty of the killing, but the person who paid the other to commit the crime was also guilty of committing the crime of murder, and you'd like people to believe that God would do something similar to that and use the devil as his tool of evil to accomplish his will?
I find that to be both disturbing and completely misguided.
7djengo7
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Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha...........ha!
Here's a thing: a scoop of ice cream.
Here are three--no, make it four--different things being said of this thing, this scoop of ice cream:
- It's cold,
- It's vanilla,
- It's a dairy product,
- It's drizzled with caramel syrup,
According to the asinine thing you just said, that thing--that scoop of ice cream--"is contradictory".
Bravo!
You have zero clue as to what constitutes contradictoriness.
| contradictory (adjective): (of two propositions) so related that one and only one must be true. |
You say "a thing is contradictory..." You obviously need to be informed that it takes two things to have contradictoriness.
Two propositions; two propositions, each of which is the contradictory of the other.
| contradictory (noun) A contradictory proposition. |
Two such propositions form pair of contradictories. Only an absolute dunce who's proud of having never bothered to learn even the most rudimentary principles of logic could claim, as you claim, that the pair of propositions--'God caused David to number Israel' and 'Satan caused David to number Israel'--is a pair of contradictories. (In fact, in my previous post, I specified for you, respectively, what proposition is the contradictory of each one of those two propositions, yet, nothing from you but deafening silence regarding that little, inconvenient detail!) If you had had even a shred of understanding of logic, you would not have made the embarrassingly elementary error that you have so proudly made. Rather, you would have (instead of saying that those two propositions are mutually contradictory) claimed that those two propositions are contrary to one another, and then you'd have tried (admittedly, in inevitable futility) to argue exactly as to why you imagine they are contrary to one another. But, since you hadn't a clue that to be contradictory and to be contrary are two, different things--let alone, you had no clue as to how they differ--you just plunged, headlong, into embarrassing yourself, as you've done.
But, since you wish to say that those two propositions--'God caused David to number Israel' and 'Satan caused David to number Israel'--are contradictories, you have at least admitted, thereby, that one of them must be true, though you have declared, also thereby, that the other must be false. So, which (of these two Bible propositions that you ignorantly, and wrongly, say are contradictories) is the proposition you say must be true?
- God caused David to number Israel
- Satan caused David to number Israel
Every time Bible-despisers such as yourself claim that the Bible is full of contradictory propositions, you are, in fact, thereby, at least admitting that the Bible is half-full of TRUE propositions.
I'm glad you have a sense of humor because you have just offered what is most likely the poorest attempt at logical argument I have personally ever observed.
That you stated it with such pride and gusto is truly perplexing. But, hey....on the upside, you got two likes for it.
So, now that you've said your part....readers have two opposing arguments to consider. I argue the passages in question are contradictory, you claim they are not.
Your religion allows you to believe that God intentionally causes people to sin, mine does not.
Your "logical argument" is in direct opposition to the Book of James, mine is not. Perhaps you are another one of these Christians who believes that the Book of James does not belong in the Bible, I don't know and at this point it doesn't matter.
k0de
Active member
And;
Revelation 2: 11. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.
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So, if his argument (and mine, for that matter) is illogical, then it should be relatively easy to show how.
Could you please, Guy, show how 7s' argument is illogical/in direct opposition to James?
Maybe. I would need to ask you some clarifying questions. It’s just that I don’t understand how you can’t see it for yourself.
Firstly, yes...you are correct that it would not be terribly difficult for me to show exactly how 7django7’s argument is illogical. That I could do. But you are also asking me to show how it is in conflict with James. So, that is two separate issues.
On the argument.
1. Do you agree with 7’s argument the way he presented it.....or...
2. Do you agree with his basic or root proposition that there is no contradiction because both are true?
3. Do you believe that God can do evil?
If you can answer these questions, I should be able to do as you ask either before or after my golf game this morning.
PS. Unless I get blocked out of the forum and can’t log in. If I don’t respond it’s because the system won’t allow me to log in. Sometimes it takes days for me to be able to log back in. So, if you don’t hear from me, that’s why.
I agree with his proposition because both of the sample passages you are asserting are contradictory are in fact not, and I have shown them to not be inherently contradictory.
No.
What scripture says is that God created everything, including Satan, and that as far as God is the creator of Satan, God caused David to number Israel through Satan. In other words, God can use evil people (and even angels) to accomplish His will.
See Romans 8:28.
Ok. Then we just disagree and there will be no changing that....I’d guess.
I agree that God could not do evil. So, we agree on one thing....kind of. What you said below here is evil as I understand it.
Again, I disagree with you. I think it would be evil to cause someone to do evil, or to use an evil being to do evil. I see no difference in these actions, and like James, the brother of Jesus, I think God would never do it. But you do. So, we disagree and that’s about all there is to say about it.
I agree with you. I would say that is his perfect nature of being that would prevent him doing any wrong, evil, or mistake making.
Actually, if I may, I'd like to alter my answer to more correctly reflect my beliefs.
I believe that God CAN do evil, but because the three Persons of the Trinity are committed to the love that they have for each other, and the love He has for His creation, He WILL NOT do evil.
Because it seems we're getting slightly off topic, I'm just going to leave this link here which answers the question: Why is there no contradiction between [the two aforementioned phrases]?
https://answersingenesis.org/contra...ed-david-to-count-the-fighting-men-of-israel/
I'm sorry you believe that.
Because what I said is not evil. It's the truth.
Causing someone to do evil and actively using someone to do evil is indeed evil.
However, neither of those are what I am talking about.
I am talking about God permitting evil beings to do evil because it does not interfere with His overarching plan. (And I realize I left out something above: "To the extent God created Satan and permits him to do what he wants..."
Which raises the question: Do you believe that God has any say in anything that happens? If so, to what extent? (In other words: Predestination or Free Will?)
So let's, instead of calling the discussion quits, see if we can resolve our differences, because your last sentence is just plain intellectually lazy...
bibleverse2
New member
No, those are definitions invented by men. There is no self-apparent "inch" or "foot". And even these defined lengths depend on relativity, even according to human science (i.e. Einstein's special relativity, and Lorentz contraction). That is, lengths can vary depending on how fast one is travelling, and (like speed, and time itself) can appear different relative to another moving object.
That the truth is not determined by men, but God (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, Luke 16:15).
Also, what source of truth have you replaced God's Bible with (1 Timothy 4:1-2)?
That is, what source of truth proves that the Bible is wrong?
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Note that none of those verses contradict 1 Corinthians 14:33.
In Isaiah 34:11, the original Hebrew word (tohuw: H8414) translated as "confusion" means "desolation" (Strong's Hebrew Dictionary).
And Jeremiah 20:11 is referring to wicked people's own confusion, not anything authored by YHWH God.
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Note that it doesn't. For example, the issue in James 2:14-24 is how Christians are to be saved from hell (James 2:14b), how they are to be justified before God (James 2:23-24), just as the issue in Romans 4:1-5 is how Christians are to be saved from hell, how they are to be justified before God (cf. Romans 5:9, Romans 1:16). That is why both James 2:23-24 and Romans 4:1-5 employ the same Old Testament verse (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23). But Romans 4:1-5 refers to initial salvation/justification before God, which is based on faith without any works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), while James 2:23-24 refers to ultimate salvation/justification before God, which is based on both faith and works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).
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2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply mean that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same person (as is sometimes claimed by Gnosticism).
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Not everyone. For Enoch was translated so that he would not see death (Hebrews 11:5). And some Christians will never die (1 Corinthians 15:51-53).
Jesus comes to mind (Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21).
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No, He never does that (James 1:13). It requires our own Satanic-inspired lust to sin (James 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 3:5).
You have shown your opinion, and belief. You have not shown that they are not contradictory. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions, but a person is not entitled to make up their own facts.
I didn't invent the word contradiction, or its meaning. It existed long before I was born. But, I did use it in conversation/argument/debate. I included its meaning from the dictionary in my post so that it would be clear I was not making things up.
It is a fact that by definition, the scriptures are contradictory because they say different things about the same thing. You don't like this fact, so you choose to ignore it and make a false claim, based upon your beliefs.
You don't believe the Bible should be contradictory (I'm guessing).....and rightly so. But, you're willing to allow your own personal beliefs to overshadow the truth, and that is not positive.... in my opinion.
Since you are willing to disregard truth in favor of your beliefs, I felt that there was no need to continue discussing the point.
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