ECT Mt 25's coming and the situation of Hebrews

SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
RD may be interested (maybe not) to check this out:

1, Christ is seated now, but that's until his return to vanquish final enemies.
2, This teaching ("I was thirsty...") is people right then in the crumbling, miserable situation of Israel in that generation.
3, He was expected to return right after the destruction of the city. So he would "get up" from his throne to do so.
4, He would sit again after the vanquishing of enemies, judging between those in Israel who helped the needy in the generation just mentioned. Along with many other judgements to be made before the NHNE are created.
5, then, since the return was delayed from the original plan, this all needs to be shuffled again.
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at least 40% of this post is made up...why do you do that?
 
john w

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Interplanner said:
Other than the 4 options for the return of Christ in Mk 13's parable of the servants, most of the NT sees the return right after the destruction of Israel in that generation.

The resurrection was the enthronement of Christ: God made him Lord and Christ; David foresaw the resurrection as the enthronement, Acts 2:30-31; Lk 24 reminded the disciples that Christ was to suffer and enter his glory; Eph 1 says he was enthroned and given a title above any name in this age and the next.

Mt25's 'sheep and goats' imagery starts with that enthronement, but that is not the purpose or attention. The attention is on what believers should be like. With two things going on at the same time, we can see why this was a vital piece: Christ was enthroned, but everything in Israel was going to pieces: revolutions, unthinkable Roman admins, famine, invasion and siege of the city, a police state by the rebels in areas they held, burnings of villages either by the revolt or by Romans in pursuit. The rich classes of Jerusalem didn't want to revolt, but also did not help those who were suffering.

All of which created the misery described in the needs that needed to be met: imprisonment, hunger, destitution.

Hebrews was familiar with all of this. The land was going to be burned, 6:8. The letter implores the believers to remember that the old covenant is over with, certainly not to be fought for, and to expect the suffering of the early days of the church (10:32). The loss of property was to be accepted because they would gain the NHNE. "Don't shrink back and be destroyed" ends ch 10. They may need to shed blood in resisting the evil of the times (12:4). They need to look out for those who were 'strangers' and those in prison (13:1-3). They would suffer like Christ did (12:2) outside the city, because that city (Jerusalem) was doomed and would not endure; they were part of a city that endures. That Jerusalem would not accept that Christ was king and would be overrun by rebels hopelessly trying to fight their way to freedom from Rome. They needed to practice the sacrifice of sharing 13:16.

Most moving of all is 11:33+ because believers at that time in Israel would experience most of that hardship, and 'none of the (previous believers) received what had been promised' v39, but those past and those current ones are now blessed in Christ. Blessed but suffering.

Both passages are written with the expectation that right after this horrible period they were in, they would be with Christ in the NHNE. 12:22. You have come to this new city, you are nearly there...
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Clearing up the fog....


"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." Mt. 25:31-36 KJV

-Those judged will be the nations. The Jews will not be there at that judgment, for thy are "...not to be reckoned among the nations"(Numbers 23:9 KJV). "The" church(whichever) will not be there, for it bears no relation to the Lord Jesus Christ as "the Son of Man"(this title is used exclusively as it relates to judgment, and taking dominion on earth,) because it will not come into judgment at all(Romans 8:1 KJV............................................... .................................................. ..........................)

-the place is before "the throne of his glory", which on earth, not "in heaven":

"And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them." Ezekiel 39:21 KJV

Heathen in "the heavenly places?"

"For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land........Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.." Joel 3:1-2, Joel 3:11-12 KJV

"Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter." Isaiah 34:2 KJV

-The ground of this judgment is not even righteousness, much less holiness; it is not the ground of faith, or grace. And as to works, it is not even "good works" generally, but, as such, but only one specific work, viz., how these nations, the heathen treated "the brethren" of the Judge, the Son of Man,i.e., the Jews, per Matthew 25:35-40 KJV. This can only refer to those nations who were ALIVE to stand before that Judge, and which have thus treated or maltreated "my brethren", i.e., His brethren. And notice that there is not one word about RESURRECTION in this passage, as there is in the "Great White Throne" judgment.

-The reward is specific: it is entrance into "...the kingdom prepared for you(the JEWS-my note)from the foundation of the world..."(Mt. 25:34 KJV).

Only mental gymnastics can "square" this with this being the body of Christ, i.e.,how the church, which is his body, "in Christ"... before the foundation of the world..."(Eph. 1:4 KJV), can enter the kingdom" is a problem, and those who make it must spiritualize simple words.

This kingdom is under the whole heaven(Psalms 115:16 KJV), upon the earth(Deut. 11:21 KJV) and before the 1000 year millennium when the Son of Man will appear with His holy angels "to execute judgment .....in the land"=on earth(Jeremiah.23:5, Jeremiah 33:15 KJV):

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. " Jude 14 ,15 KJV

"cometh" to where? EARTH=where the Lord Jesus Christ will establish his literal throne in Jerusalem.

"And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." John 5:27 KJV

However, even this judgment is not total, nor final, for,after 1000 years, Satan will be loosed for a season, in order to demonstrate, that, despite "the perfect environment", as was the condition in the garden of Eden, in spite of all the evidences of the glory and goodness of the LORD God demonstrated in His millennial reign, man is a rebel at heart, or, to use an idiom, "he is, what he is." And thus, so much for "the social gospel", and "dominion theology"-trying to "fix this place up", then man will change, he will "evolve"(evolution!) upward. No, man has a "heart problem", which only the gospel of Christ can rectify/cure.

vs. "The Great White Throne" Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15 KJV

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:11-15 KJV

-when: immediately after the 1000 years, marking it off from other judgments.

-the place: before the "great white throne"

-the persons that appear before it are to be raised from the dead for this special, particular purpose. These lived before the 1000 years, but they "...lived not again until the thousand years were finished"(Rev. 20:5 KJV). Those who died during the 1000 years must also be there, for not one will be there who has not died. It is "....the resurrection of damnation"(John 5:29 KJV=judgment/condemnation). Those who introduce the dead among the living nations of Mt. 25 KJV, of course do not hesitate to introduce the living among the dead in Revelation 20!

So, notice-RESURRECTION here of those who have died, vs. none in Mt. 25 KJV judgment of the heathen nations, who are living.

These are not the same judgments.

Again:

Note the order in Mt. 25:31 KJV, and when this verse is fulfilled. The Lord Jesus Christ has to return to earth "in his glory." Accompanying him will be "all the holy angels." Neither of these has yet to occur. "Then" He shall "sit upon his throne of glory." Is "then" other than a time word indicating future? Yes. Could "His throne of glory" be David's throne? Yes. Or does the Lord Jesus Christ have another throne, besides David's throne? And where is this "throne of glory?" Since Christ is coming to earth, it must therefore be on earth. From there he will judge the nations as the verses in Mt. 25 KJV indicate.


Regarding the throne, Christ made a promise to His disciples that, “In the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt. 19:28 KJV). Amillennialists would have us believe this refers to Christ sitting at the right hand of God. If this is true, then the twelve must have been seated with Him at that time on their thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. But we know that at the time the twelve were hiding behind locked doors or were in prison. Therefore, if Christ’s promise is to be fulfilled, it will be sometime in the future. Premillennialists understand the “regeneration” to refer to that time of renewal and restoration spoken of by all the OT prophets. This is referred to as the Messianic or Millennial Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ="the regeneration."
 
john w

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Some "philosophical meanderings"(Eagle Eye Barney Fife)....and the dispensational approach(man is tested...fails.....)

I argue that the Holy Bible is a testimony to man's utter failure and unfaithfulness, and testifies to the LORD God's complete success and faithfulness, irrespective of man's shortcomings, that He will accomplish w/o any "help" from me/you/anyone, or "the Church." He needs no help from you, nor me, nor anyone else. He will "set this world" aright, and "...as the days of heaven upon the earth..."(Deut. 11:21 KJV) will ultimately be realized, but He will do it in JUDGMENT, and He will do it ALONE, w/o any assistance from me,you,or anyone else, including "the Church", and he will do it by force, in wrath, for "...The LORD is a man of war...(Exodus 15:3 KJV,Isaiah 42:13 KJV) including setting up His physical kingdom on earth, without any "opinion poll", without any "what do you think, 'the' Church?" And to what end?:

FOR HIS GLORY, which is the central theme of the Holy Bible.

And hence, the reason He will fulfill every last one of the covenants promised to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, "the Fathers",(not made you, not to the Body of Christ), INCLUDING restoring them to their land ,not yours, in resurrected bodies(hence the need for resurrection):

FOR HIS GLORY

And hence, Matthew 25 ff....judgement.....


"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." Mt. 25:31-36 KJV
 
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