Miss USA says to love the terrorists..

[Town Heretic]

Now you're getting all "old testament" on me.

The same yesterday, today and tomorrow, Pure. The law fulfilled is different but the nature of God isn't.

Interesting how that always seems to happen at this point in these discussions.

I'm glad you find it interesting. I find having a particular point answered interesting. So far your responses aren't very interesting by that standard.

Suddenly, Christians turn into ancient Jews when the real challenge of Christ's love and forgiveness starts to become otherwise unavoidable, and personally unobtainable.

So you're not interested in doing that, okay.

Good running into you anyway. :e4e:

 

[PureX]

Otherwise, what I've actually noted is that you can't love your neighbor and allow him to be slaughtered when you have the capacity to stop it.

And yet you can't love, forgive, and turn your other cheek to the aggressors while you slaughter them, either. And therein lies the challenge. As well as the reason why we so often fail at it.

And God distinguishes between the unrighteous act, murder, and the righteous act, preventing it--which is why the commandment goes, "Thou shalt no murder" instead of kill.

And the God you'd mistakenly brand a pacifist sent armies into the field and slew the first born of Egypt to free His people.

Well, that's your ancient Judaic religion talking. I don't see any evidence of this, at all, coming from God, in this world. In fact, the evidence points to quite the opposite: that God loves us all the same, regardless of our "moral/religious righteousness", or lack thereof.

 

[resodko]

fine - it's a challenge

how do we meet that challenge?


how do we "love" evil people who are murdering innocents?

 

[bybee]

And yet you can't love, forgive, and turn your other cheek to the aggressors while you slaughter them, either. And therein lies the challenge. As well as the reason why we so often fail at it.
Well, that's your ancient Judaic religion talking. I don't see any evidence of this, at all, coming from God, in this world. In fact, the evidence points to quite the opposite: that God loves us all the same, regardless of our "moral/religious righteousness", or lack thereof.

The Universalist text is that "All who wish to be saved shall be saved." The implication being that those who do not wish to be saved will not.
Acts of heinous aggression against others are not the acts of persons wishing to be saved.

 

[Town Heretic]

And yet you can't love, forgive, and turn your other cheek to the aggressors while you slaughter them, either. And therein lies the challenge. As well as the reason why we so often fail at it.
Well, that's your ancient Judaic religion talking. I don't see any evidence of this, at all, coming from God, in this world. In fact, the evidence points to quite the opposite: that God loves us all the same, regardless of our "moral/religious righteousness", or lack thereof.

That's your desire to define God in a way that pleases you talking. But Christ said to see that God was to see him. You can't reject the one without rejecting the other. Now if you want to talk about the impact of the fulfillment of the law it's one thing. This is another.

And you have the point of the cheek turning wrong. It was to put the attacker and victim on equal footing, which would shame the one delivering the blow. That's what a back handed slap would imply. It's a cultural norm we don't share so we misread that one often.

Lastly, I can imprison a thief and love him because I love those he would harm in his rebellion. I can slay an enemy and love him because I love those he would destroy. If we made that understanding a part of who we are then there would be far fewer wars beyond the necessity of battling evil. Taking a life should be a painful, wrenching thing because we love.

 

[PureX]

The Universalist text is that "All who wish to be saved shall be saved." The implication being that those who do not wish to be saved will not.
Acts of heinous aggression against others are not the acts of persons wishing to be saved.

I think they are very often the actions of people trying to save themselves, at the expense of others. Which is exactly what we are doing when we act in self-defense. I also think that people commit violent acts against others for the sake of their own group's well-being. Which is exactly what we are doing when we act to protect our family or neighbors, from them.

When a 'jihadist' kills an 'infidel' he believes he is doing God's will, and that his act is righteous. When we kill the jihadist for having committed that act, we believe we are doing God's will, and that our action is righteous.

It is the assumption that our actions are righteous, and that we are doing God's will, that gives those on both sides of the violence the justification to kill.

But what if there were NO justification to kill, EVER? What if even when we think we're right, and have all the logic and reasoning to back us up, we are still not justified? What if that commandment really was, "Thou shalt not kill, … ever"?

 

[PureX]

That's your desire to define God in a way that pleases you talking. But Christ said to see that God was to see him. You can't reject the one without rejecting the other. Now if you want to talk about the impact of the fulfillment of the law it's one thing. This is another.

I can accept or reject anything I want to for any reason I see fit. As can you and everyone else. As do you and everyone else.

I am a Christian, not an ancient or modern Jew. I am not beholding to the ancient or modern Jewish concepts of God. If you are, that's your choice, just as my choice is my own.

I point out that God does absolutely nothing in this world that would indicate that he loves any single human more or less than any other, regardless of their beliefs or behaviors. You point out that the ancient Jews believed something else.

So what? Why should either one of us care what the ancient Jews believed or wrote about God? What does any of that have to do with us, today? Why are you expecting me to care about, or be 'humbled' by it?

And you have the point of the cheek turning wrong. It was to put the attacker and victim on equal footing, which would shame the one delivering the blow. That's what a back handed slap would imply. It's a cultural norm we don't share so we misread that one often.

What good is a Jesus that isn't really any better than we are, when it comes to responding to injustice, and violent aggression?

Lastly, I can imprison a thief and love him because I love those he would harm in his rebellion. I can slay an enemy and love him because I love those he would destroy. If we made that understanding a part of who we are then there would be far fewer wars beyond the necessity of battling evil. Taking a life should be a painful, wrenching thing because we love.

Except almost none of us can do that. If any of us can.

The problem with violence is that it poisons the soul of everyone it touches. Just like greed, or the lust for power and control. Which is why we should never accept violence as just behavior, even when we are forced to engage in it. And we should never, EVER, glory in it as being "God's will".

 

[bybee]

I can accept or reject anything I want to for any reason I see fit. As can you and everyone else. As do you and everyone else.

I am a Christian, not an ancient or modern Jew. I am not beholding to the ancient or modern Jewish concepts of God. If you are, that's your choice, just as my choice is my own.

I point out that God does absolutely nothing in this world that would indicate that he loves any single human more or less than any other, regardless of their beliefs or behaviors. You point out that the ancient Jews believed something else.

So what? Why should either one of us care what the ancient Jews believed or wrote about God? What does any of that have to do with us, today? Why are you expecting me to care about, or be 'humbled' by it?
What good is a Jesus that isn't really any better than we are, when it comes to responding to injustice, and violent aggression?
Except almost none of us can do that. If any of us can.

The problem with violence is that it poisons the soul of everyone it touches. Just like greed, or the lust for power and control. Which is why we should never accept violence as just behavior, even when we are forced to engage in it. And we should never, EVER, glory in it as being "God's will".

Sometimes, when someone is braying in the wind with a pontifical cast to his pomposities I'd like to stick a cork in his mouth and watch him fly off as the methane mounts!
Not really violent.

 

[resodko]

res asks aikey and purexcrement:

how do we "love" evil people who are murdering innocents?

their brilliant response?

Spoiler

 

[PureX]

Sometimes, when someone is braying in the wind with a pontifical cast to his pomposities I'd like to stick a cork in his mouth and watch him fly off as the methane mounts!
Not really violent.

See how it poisons your soul? Just the idea of it being justified has done this to you!

 

[bybee]

See how it poisons your soul? Just the idea of it being justified has done this to you!

How very fragile you must be.

 

[aikido7]

and how do we "love" evil people who are murdering innocents?

By telling ourselves another story. We still live in a myth of "redemptive violence" in which horrific conflicts with others are the dysfunctional story between and among many people living on earth these days.

There are proven methods of responding to conflict besides giving in and fighting back. Personally, trying to connect with someone in a shared and human way helps me recognize and work with the good intention buried by violent behavior.

Here is a story about just one of the ways of responding to conflict and violence besides being passive or aggressive towards it:

http://wagingnonviolence.org/feature/you-too-can-stop-a-school-shooter/

And this is just ONE instance of effective nonviolent action. There are hidden stories of the true history and triumph of nonviolence throughout history. There are many similar stories by women who were going to be raped or killed by an intruder in the middle of the night.

There used to be a book (which I have now forgotten the title) of a Christian woman who ended up praying with her tormenter and he burst into tears and surrendered himself to the police.

The successful outcomes of the nonviolent actions against the Nazis show that it worked every time it was tried.

Adolf Eichmann, the head of Hitler's "final solution" to the Jews, admitted in court that his program was a total failure in the Netherlands. There was a strong and unified story of successful nonviolent protest and action that resonated with the people and those Scandinavian cultures.

 

[resodko]

isis is murdering innocents right now - today - this moment

islamists are kidnapping girls and forcing them into prostitution and arranged marriages right now - today - this moment


how do you propose that we "love" these people committing evil deeds?

 

[aikido7]

meanwhile, islam is chopping off heads and selling little girls into sexual slavery

Everyone's heart is filled with thoughts and actions we barely recognize. It's always "the other" that "forces" us to behave violently and disrespectfully.

Since both sides are unable to deal with and process their own suffering, they act that out and project it onto others. Instead of taking responsibility for their own violence and revenge, they deny it and act it out on their enemies.

"Love your enemies."
"The Father makes his sun to shine on both the good AND the evil, and sends his rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous ALIKE."

 

[aikido7]

isis is murdering innocents right now - today - this moment

islamists are kidnapping girls and forcing them into prostitution and arranged marriages right now - today - this moment


how do you propose that we "love" these people committing evil deeds?

Using the same nonviolent strategies that work that are backed up by science and my own experiences.

Connect with what is alive in other people. Stand your ground and find out the original intention behind their violence. Build on that and develop long-term relationships. Focus on ways to deal with disagreements and conflict besides being passive doormats or Sherman tanks.

You might not immediately figure out what those ways are, but it is easy to find out what ways do not work: Giving in or fighting back.

 

[PureX]

How very fragile you must be.

How very wrong you are.

I'm tough as an old boot, and soft as a baby's butt.

They call me the "Velvet Rope".

 

[bybee]

How very wrong you are.

I'm tough as an old boot, and soft as a baby's butt.

They call me the "Velvet Rope".

You are an interesting soul!

 

[Town Heretic]

I can accept or reject anything I want to for any reason I see fit.

I didn't say you couldn't. I said if you reject one you reject both.

I am a Christian, not an ancient or modern Jew.

I didn't say you were a Jew. I didn't say you were living under the Mosaic covenant. I simply noted that the God of the OT and Christ are in accord.

I am not beholding to the ancient or modern Jewish concepts of God. If you are, that's your choice, just as my choice is my own.

It's Christ's context. He and the Father, the one you try to reduce to a "Jewish concept of God", are one.

I point out that God does absolutely nothing in this world that would indicate that he loves any single human more or less than any other, regardless of their beliefs or behaviors.

Well that lines up with the first part of John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son

But it doesn't address the second leg,

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You point out that the ancient Jews believed something else.

Actually I noted that Christ said to see the God is to see him.

So what? Why should either one of us care what the ancient Jews believed or wrote about God?

So at what point in your narrative does the Bible become something more than speculation/justification for one people and the Word of God proceeding into the world?

What does any of that have to do with us, today?

Well, God has said that He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. So when you make God a pacifist and conflate any violence with every violence, when you can't distinguish between murder and killing I think it follows from that discounting.

Why are you expecting me to care about, or be 'humbled' by it?

I don't recall asking you to be. So it's a curious declaration.

What good is a Jesus that isn't really any better than we are, when it comes to responding to injustice, and violent aggression?

What good is a God we think we're better than?

Except almost none of us can do that. If any of us can.

Sure we can. I didn't say following Christ was easy or comfortable.

The problem with violence is that it poisons the soul of everyone it touches.

Impacts, certainly. But poisons? No. God wouldn't command a thing that created destruction in ourselves. That would be the Holy warring with itself.

And we should never, EVER, glory in it as being "God's will".

There's no glory in death, except in Christ's, to be sure.

 

[PureX]

So at what point in your narrative does the Bible become something more than speculation/justification for one people and the Word of God proceeding into the world?

It doesn't. The ideas that humanity presents itself through scripture are true only to the degree that they align with reality as we experience it.

Well, God has said that He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow…

God has said no such thing.

So when you make God a pacifist …

I did not "make God a pacifist". I simply pointed out that Jesus told us to return violence with non-violence, and did so himself. I further pointed out that the ideal of non-violence works, though not immediately and in all cases. So that it makes it very difficult for us to practice.

… and conflate any violence with every violence, when you can't distinguish between murder and killing I think it follows from that discounting.

Since the only difference between the two is justification, and everyone presumes themselves to be justified, I don't really see any difference, here, except the difference between 'us' and 'them'. A difference that God apparently has no interest in.

There's no glory in death, except in Christ's, to be sure.

That's an irrational perspective.

 

[bybee]

It doesn't. The ideas that humanity presents itself through scripture are true only to the degree that they align with reality as we experience it.
God has said no such thing.
I did not "make God a pacifist". I simply pointed out that Jesus told us to return violence with non-violence, and did so himself. I further pointed out that the ideal of non-violence works, though not immediately and in all cases. So that it makes it very difficult for us to practice.
Since the only difference between the two is justification, and everyone presumes themselves to be justified, I don't really see any difference, here, except the difference between 'us' and 'them'. A difference that God apparently has no interest in.
That's an irrational perspective.

Ahhhhhh! You cherry pick Scripture to show that nothing is provable and ultimately that nothing is plausible!
One may choose from any number of avatars for basis of life? One may choose only a few of an avatars statements and make a way of life from it?
On the one hand you seem to contend that we can't really know anything for certain and on the other hand you condemn us for not knowing anything for certain.