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Poly

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Originally posted by adajos

Christ could see what was in people's hearts in a way that you and I cannot.
Proverbs 23:7 "For as a man thinks in his heart, so is he."
Matthew 15:11 "It's not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."
Beanieboy doesn't hesitate to make it known that he has no need of Christ. One does not have to know beanieboy's heart in some "special" way to know what's in it. All one has to do is read.
The Pharisees appeared righteous and went through the motions of doing all the right things and condemning all the wrong things. But they were filled with self-righteousness and more interested in seeming holy to others than in loving and helping people. As such, they represented God poorly and did more harm than good.

Answer me this---who is "most similar" to the Pharisees in this conversation---yourself or beanieboy? Please give your grounds for your answer as well.

That's a good question.

Beanieboy claims that he does not need Christ's sacrifice to cover his sins. He feels that God is perfectly fine with him just the way he is and that he doesn't have to accept Christ as his savior in order to be saved. I have always made it clear that my righteousness has nothing to do with me and everything to do with Christ.

You do the math.
BTW Poly, where did your post that I am responding to in this post go? Either it was deleted, or I responded to this post in the wrong thread. Which is it?
It was deleted. I had originally decided that responding to you was getting tiresome since you seem to be told the same thing yet do not seem to listen. But I couldn't resist responding to this above question you asked. I think some on here need to realize just what self-righteousness is. It's believing that righteousness comes from someting good in one's "self". My good is Christ alone.
 
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adajos

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Poly:

One does not have to know beanieboy's heart in some "special" way to know what's in it. All one has to be able to do is read.
Proverbs 23:7 "For as a man thinks in his heart, so is he."
Matthew 15:11 "It's not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."
Beanieboy doesn't hesitate to make it known that he has no need of Christ. One does not have to know beanieboy's heart in some "special" way to know what's in it.

Two points:

1. In case you haven't noticed, people often play devil's advocate on this board. People don't always type what they really think. Who knows to what extent he's done that. People like to argue from all perspectives to get a rise out of people.

2. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are right---to an extent, it's possible to know beanieboys heart from his posts. So tell me this, has his heart reacted to your name-calling and insults by moving closer to God? Has anyone ever become a Christian and repented due to your verbal barrages?

That's a good question.

Beanieboy claims that he does not need Christ's sacrifice to cover his sins. He feels that God is perfectly fine with him just the way he is and that he doesn't have to accept Christ as his savior in order to be saved. I have always made it clear that my righteousness has nothing to do with me and everything to do with Christ.

You do the math.

beanieboy is not a Christian, why should you expect confessions of faith that only a Christian would make? Many other non-Christians would make similar claims---do you call them "lying theives", "pathetic drunkards", "tubs of lard", and "lustful pervs" for their various "non-gay" sins as well? No, that's right, you save that for your "favorite sins".

I find it rich that you exlude yourself from the possibility of self-righteousness by default. This should be a red flag to anyone who is reading this thread who is even halfway objective.

Dictionary.com defines "self-righteous" in this way:

self-right·eous (slfrchs)
adj.
Piously sure of one's own righteousness; moralistic.
Exhibiting pious self-assurance: self-righteous remarks.

That's exactly the problem here. If you were less assured of your own righteousness and placed a Biblical emphasis on humilty you would find it possible to keep a hard line against sin without relishing the judgement to others. You would realize that it's only God's grace that has saved you, and nothing intrinsically good about yourself. That would change your attitude and your approach entirely.

I don't have the special hatred towards homosexuals that you do. I understand though, that that is only because of God's grace. If I had been born to a different family, or in a different place, then I could just as easily feel the same way about them. Who knows, I could have been a homosexual under other life circumstances. And the same goes for you.

It was deleted. I had originally decided that responding to you was getting tiresome since you seem to be told the same thing yet do not seem to listen. But I couldn't resist responding to this above question you asked. I think some on here need to realize just what self-righteousness is. It's believing that righteousness comes from someting good in one's "self". My good is Christ alone.

I have listened to everything you've said and challenged you on the substance of your posts. You respond, but skip over much of the harder questions I ask you. I have yet to see you challenge any of the Biblical references I gave that depict a Christ very unlike the Christ that you seem to believe in.

I have yet to see you give any valid reason of why you treat gluttons one way and homosexuals another. You have stated that arbitrary degrees of pride involved in the two sins differ--but that is just your personal opinion. That position has no Scriptural backing so you'll have to forgive me if I find that unimpressive. It sounds to me an awful lot like "I don't like gays more than I don't like gluttons therefore I treat them differently."

I asked you who was in a position to be most like the Pharisees---you, the Christian or beanieboy, the Buddhist. Unbelievers cannot be more like Pharisees than believers, because it's the Pharisees that appear godly on the outside but are rotten on the inside. Any Christian with more than a passing knowledge of the Gospels should understand that much. So either you don't have a very comprehensive knowledge of the Bibles' contents or you answered my question dishonestly. That should also be very obvious to any half-way objective readers of this thread.
 

the Sibbie

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Mean old Jesus *tsk, tsk*

Mean old Jesus *tsk, tsk*

Luke 10: 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.' 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

Hmm.

Interesting reference for Jesus to interject, huh?
Jesus is teaching hatred so that even the dust from the town was despicable! :noway: How does that show love? How dare Him! :shocked:
 

adajos

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Sibbie:

Luke 10: 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.' 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

Hmm.

Interesting reference for Jesus to interject, huh?

Jesus is teaching hatred so that even the dust from the town was despicable! How does that show love? How dare Him!

Yes, Jesus is not a sissy, always lovey-dovey type. He's not soft and mushy. Jesus ain't Barney the cuddly-purple dinosaur. I don't dispute your verse as evidence of harshness from Jesus in any way.

But neither is Christ entirely the harsh hater of sinners that your crowd always likes to portray Him as. The best way to understand Him is considering everything that He said and did, even if it doesn't conform to our own personal agendas in the way we want.

I will point out that He told the disciples to leave when they are not recieved by unbelievers. That is an entirely different approach then bombarding them with rude words and relishing their damnation. I would much rather have Christians who are unwelcomed by homosexuals react by breaking off communication with them than by what they are doing.

There are only two things I ask:

1. Let's be intellectually honest and consider everything that the Bible tells us about the words and actions of Christ--even those things that don't fit into our personal pictures of Him. Let the Bible make our picture of Him, not our agendas.

2. Let's approach non-Christians with the proper humility since we are but sinners saved by God's grace---not by anything we have done.

I believe that if we do those things, alot of the stuff that is said to and about homosexuals on this board would not be voiced.
 

Lighthouse

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"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
-Romans 5:8
[emphasis mine]

This is why I stand on the belief that God loves the sinner. The ones whom He hates are the workers of iniquity who are the powers and principalities of darkness.
 

the Sibbie

New member
Ezekiel 15:48-50

Ezekiel 16
48 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD , your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done.
49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

<cough>
Just a side note: Seems as if they were unrepentant (how could a haughty person be repentant?). And they did detestable things (detestable is a synonym for abominable).



Beanie that whole chapter reminds me of your life. Let me summarize:
  • Ezekiel 16:1-14 - These verses remind me of your previous “Christian” life. Verse 8"…indeed your time was the time of love; so I spread My wing over you and covered your nakedness...”
  • Ezekiel 16:15 -30 - Then you turned your back on God and trusted in your own ideas and Buddhism. Verse 15 “But you trusted in your own beauty…” Verse 27 “I stretched out My hand against you, …, and gave you up to the will of those who hate you” ***
  • Ezekiel 16:31-34 - You rejected the Lord Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for you. You merit yourself by your works and give respect to other gods. Verse 31 “…Yet you were not like a harlot, because you scorned payment.” Verse 34 "...you gave payment but no payment was given you..."
  • Ezekiel 16:35-41 – God will judge you without the covering of Christ. Verse 37-38 “I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved, and all those you hated; I will gather them from all around against you and will uncover your nakedness to them, that they may see all your nakedness. 38 And I will judge you …” Verse 40 “I will also give you into their hand…They shall execute judgments …and I will make you cease playing the harlot...”
  • Ezekiel 16:42-43 – Once the judgments are dealt, God will rest from anger and award compensation for deeds. Verse 42-43 “So I will lay to rest My fury toward you, and My jealousy shall depart from you. I will be quiet, and be angry no more." Verse 43 "…I will also recompense your deeds on your own head," says the Lord GOD. "And you shall not commit lewdness in addition to all your abominations.”
  • Ezekiel 16:44-52 - God will show how your sins compare to others. Verse 51 “You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters.”
  • Ezekiel 16:53-58 – God will deal with you according to your deeds. Verse 59 “For thus says the Lord GOD: "I will deal with you as you have done, who despised the oath by breaking the covenant.”
  • Ezekiel 16:60-63 – If you repent completely and turn to God, accept Christ as an atonement for your sins and heed the words recorded by His chosen prophets and disciples, God will write your name in The Book of Life. Verse 60 “…I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. Verse 62 “Then you shall know that I am the LORD, 63 that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done," says the Lord GOD.”

##########################################
This not only goes for you beanie, but all who have played the harlot with other gods and false religions. The events of your life, which you have testified, seemed to follow along with the outline of Jerusalem’s fall.* It broke my heart to see how Jerusalem was loved by God and treated like royalty, but then they abused all the riches He has given them. And it broke my heart to realize that you and others like you have fallen into a similar path. Won’t you reconsider repenting of your ways and accepting the free gift of the Blood of the Lamb?

*NOTE: My commentary on verses 44-63 will not happen according to the turn of events for the nation Israel. I only wanted to highlight the important verses within that passage. According to this chapter, after Israel’s fall God pours out His judgment on them, showing how their iniquity was so great that it even makes Sodom and Samaria look good (these two groups were by no means righteous). After the judgements, God will swoon Israel back for the sake of His original covenant, accepting those who repent.
##########################################




***Especially:
Ezekiel 16:17 You have also taken your beautiful jewelry from My gold and My silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself male images and played the harlot with them.


Let me clarify why this verse in particular stood out to me:

You have also taken your [favorite phrases] from My [Word] and My [Truth], which I had given you, and made for yourself a [combination of Buddha’s and your own ideas] and played the harlot with them.
 

beanieboy

New member
Originally posted by theo_victis

hmm...... it was wierd how Lot offered his daughters. His daughters were pretty gross themselves though, remember they did have sex with Lot in attempt to repopulate the earth. ewe!

Maybe Lot panicked and offered his daughters because he wanted to spare the angels. Wierd logic because as far as i know, angels are stuck on earth and they probably could have "disappeared" if they wanted to.

hmm.....

The one I quoted was the story in Judges, actually.
 

beanieboy

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Originally posted by Chileice
I am not defending you, beanie. You are not asking me to. I do not think that homosexual behaviour is God's plan for your life or anyone else's. I think you have sold yourself short of what God intended you to be and for that I am sorry. But my take on this is that I should continue to love you and to interact with you even if you spit in my face (which you haven't).

But they seem to think that calling you names or condemning you to death is going to scare you into the kingdom of God. Let love be without hypocrisy means not that we hate all people who sin because we would have to hate everyone including ourselves. It means we should look in the mirror before God and ask Him to cleanse ME... not the other guy. I can never live your life for you, beanie. I can't live it for Poly or for smaller or anyone.

But as far as it depends on me I can be at peace with God and with all people. They may reject me and my Christainity (many have). But I do not need to seek to be offended.
Blessings.

You have said that you love me, and yet do not love my sin. You have said that you love me, and treat me with respect. You have said that you love me, and take the verses in context.

Your love is without hyporacy, and for that, I can listen.

You say of yourself, "I should be transformed through Christ. "
You look first at yourself. So I can listen.

You point out that many reject your Christianity. Many rejected the attitude of Jesus, because even though they were learners of the Law, Jesus was eating with the lowly sinners. You risk rejection because it is true to your heart, without a bunch of people to back you up. So I can listen.

If more people were living like you are, there would be an abundance of respect for Christianity. Thank you.
 

Poly

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Originally posted by beanieboy

If more people were living like you are, there would be an abundance of respect for Christianity. Thank you.
Oh come on Chileice. Don't you see how you are being made a fool of? Beanieboy has no intention of accepting Christ. And not because he's not been asked "nicely". He has no interest in somebody being nice to him so then, maybe he'll consider becoming a Christian and giving up his filth. He wants to use your own bible against you while claiming that he does not believe in it.
Where's the respect for God in defending Him against such mockery? He's always claiming to know how Christ would handle certain situations saying "Well, Christ would do this and wouldn't do that." Christ continually offended those who claimed they did not need Him. What in the world makes you think he would have treated beanieboy, who also claims that he does not need Christ, any differently?

Matthew 15:12-14 Then came His disciples and said unto Him, "Knowest thou, that the Pharisees were offended at this saying?"(13)But He answered them and said, "Every plant which is not planted by my heavenly Father shall be rooted up.(14) Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall in the ditch."

But here's how so many on here think that this same scene would play out if it were beanieboy.
"But He answered and said, "He was offended? Oh no. Well, go run and get Him, guys. I need to apologize."

Christ had no tolerance with those who made it clear that they had no need of Him. Beanieboy makes this very clear as well. So why is he the exception?
 
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beanieboy

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Originally posted by adajos
If you were less assured of your own righteousness and placed a Biblical emphasis on humilty you would find it possible to keep a hard line against sin without relishing the judgement to others.

This is all that we are saying.
 

adajos

New member
I don't mean to steal Chileice's thunder but----

Poly:

Beanieboy has no intention of accepting Christ.

Well, not in his interactions with you. I think the whole reason he interacts with you to begin with is because it's easy to argue with people who take a goofball position as you do.

He wants to use your own bible against you while claiming that he does not believe in it.

He only uses the Bible against you because he sees hypocrisy in your actions when he holds them up to the Bible. He hasn't tried to use the Bible against Chileice.

Furthermore, the words of the Bible ought to be what the words of Christians are measured against--by both Christians and non-Christians.

He's always claiming to know how Christ would handle certain situations saying "Well, Christ would do this and wouldn't do that."

And you do exactly the same thing. Your approach to knowing how Christ would handle any given situation is formulaic and simplistic. And you conveniently ignore places where Christ reacts in a way of which you don't approve.

Matthew 15:12-14 Then came His disciples and said unto Him, "Knowest thou, that the Pharisees were offended at this saying?"(13)But He answered them and said, "Every plant which is not planted by my heavenly Father shall be rooted up.(14) Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall in the ditch."

Fine. So leave him alone rather than continually demeaning him and reviling him. I know you enjoy the rush of righteousness you get from calling him a "disgusting queer", but why not just leave him be?

But here's how so many on here think that this same scene would play out if it were beanieboy.
"But He answered and said, "He was offended? Oh no. Well, go run and get Him, guys. I need to apologize."

I do not apologize for my beliefs or if they give offense. But then again, I don't make it my mission to offend without regard for the effect of that offense on the non-Christian.
 

Poly

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Originally posted by adajos

But then again, I don't make it my mission to offend without regard for the effect of that offense on the non-Christian.
Yes, you've made it quite clear that you're not interested in handling ones like beanieboy, the way that Christ would.
 

adajos

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Yes, you've made it quite clear that you're not interested in handling ones like beanieboy, the way that Christ would.

You've made it clear that you don't want to be intellectually honest enough to deal with serious objections to your position. Is there anyone in your posse that is capable of doing so? I would consider Battle Royaling them if so. Perhaps Chileice would as well.

In fact, by considering it impossible for you to be self-righteous by default, you've made it clear that you don't want to be honest at all.
 

Poly

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Originally posted by adajos

You've made it clear that you don't want to be intellectually honest enough to deal with serious objections to your position. Is there anyone in your posse that is capable of doing so? I would consider Battle Royaling them if so. Perhaps Chileice would as well.

In fact, by considering it impossible for you to be self-righteous by default, you've made it clear that you don't want to be honest at all.

Would Christ have said to beanieboy "Leave him alone" as he did others who rejected him?
 

adajos

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Would Christ have said to beanieboy "Leave him alone" as he did others who rejected him?

First of all, I'm not clear what you're trying to say here. Your sentence doesn't make sense. I'm assuming you're meaning "Would Christ have said to us ABOUT beanieboy "Leave him alone" as He did others who rejected him?

Your friend Sibbie just pointed out in post #343 this passage:

Luke 10: 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.' 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

So yeah, actually Christ might say that. I don't remember Christ saying "linger around and insult people who are unreceptive to what you say".
 

beanieboy

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Originally posted by Poly
Matthew 15:12-14 Then came His disciples and said unto Him, "Knowest thou, that the Pharisees were offended at this saying?"(13)But He answered them and said, "Every plant which is not planted by my heavenly Father shall be rooted up.(14) Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall in the ditch."

You read this, a passage about Jesus offending Pharisees:

Pharisee A member of an ancient Jewish sect that emphasized strict interpretation and observance of the Mosaic law in both its oral and written form.

So, Jesus was not offending "the sinner." He was offending people within the temple. He was offending religious leaders.

Can you explain how you then interpret this to mean that one should offend everyone by any means necessary?
 

beanieboy

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Originally posted by Poly

Would Christ have said to beanieboy "Leave him alone" as he did others who rejected him?

How do you think that Christ would deal with me.

I'm at Chipotle, eating a burito. Jesus asks if he can sit at my table, I say sure.

Then what?
 

adajos

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beanieboy:

How do you think that Christ would deal with me.

I'm at Chipotle, eating a burito. Jesus asks if he can sit at my table, I say sure.

Then what?

Great scenario!! I love Chipotle! Just had one last night.....YUM.
 

beanieboy

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Luke 10: 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.' 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

Not welcomed.
It doesn't say, "If they don't convert on the spot..."
It doesn't say, "If they don't agree with what you say..."
It says, "If you enter a town and ARE NOT WELCOMED.

I have done nothing to not welcome you.
 

theo_victis

New member
i find it funny how people on boards are like, o come on he doesnt want Jesus, or c'mon he doesnt want to be a christian....

its hilarious especially when the person everyone is talking about is posting in the thread.

here, i will *directly* ask him instead of debating when we honestly dont know.

--------------

Beanieboy, what are your intentions in searching out scriptures? Do you love God? Do you love Jesus? Have you asked for forgiveness and repented?


*these are important questions to ask and to recieve answers to before judging.
 
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