In other words, not salvation from hell?
. . .
Salvation from hell?
The Salvation of Israel was from being cut off from the promises God made.
I'm unconvinced. If we're in heaven and Jews are living on earth, and Jews are ruling, with Christ here on earth, over the gentile nations, and we are Christ's body, how can we not be with Christ here on earth?
Are you asserting that Jesus, who is God, can't be in multiple places simultaneously if He wants to be? ("omnipresent")
Also, Scripture is explicit: There will be both a new heaven and a new earth.
Paul states that we are citizens of heaven, not of earth:
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
Assurance of the Resurrection - For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
www.biblegateway.com
Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
Our Citizenship in Heaven - Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern.
www.biblegateway.com
... while Israel was promised an earthly kingdom (too many verses, see the following links):
What is the land that God promised to Israel? What are the borders of the territory God gave to the Israelites as an inheritance?
www.gotquestions.org
The opening verse consists of promises from the Lord to David. They guaranteed an everlasting kingdom for David's line. The following verse conveys
www.blueletterbible.org
But my question was about what we and they are being saved from. What it seems you are saying is that we are saved from hell by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, and the Jews are saved from not being a nation by Jesus establishing His kingdom. Aren't Jews in danger of hell, too? Aren't they saved from hell the same way we are?
I think part of the problem here is that you're treating national Israel as a "group of individuals" rather than a "single nation."
God promised that He would make Israel a great nation, and that He would reign forever over them.
"Christ" = "Messiah" = "anointed"
Why does the Body Of Christ need an anointed one,
I never said we did...?
Did you ever notice that Paul never once uses the word "anointed" except once in 2 Corinthians, and even then he's talking about us being anointed by God?
That's pretty significant, if you ask me.
if we're not part of the kingdom of Christ?
Define "the kingdom of Christ"? That could mean any number of different things, depending on the context...
Which was shown to be a false distinction, one Peter and the twelve were not supposed to be making.
Which was shown AFTER Paul's conversion, which only supports my position that there was a transition in whom God was focusing on, from Israel to the Body of Christ.
Yet Paul continued to celebrate the Jewish feast calendar.
Acts 20:16 KJV — For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.
Which is completely in line with what he said:
For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.
Serving All Men - For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more;
www.biblegateway.com
The body of Christ came about from Jews evangelizing gentiles.
Wrong.
The Body of Christ began with Paul, and Paul is the one who went to evangelize, to the Jews first, then the Gentiles.
Some think the plural "you" in 1 Cor 6 is mostly talking about the local body of believers, making it, also, a corporate relationship:
1 Corinthians 6:17 KJV — But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
...one that can be sullied when a single believer joins himself to a harlot.
Except that Paul talks about those in the body of Christ as "many members."
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. For as we have
many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, so
we, being many, are one body in Christ, and
individually members of one another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
Serve God with Spiritual Gifts - For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
www.biblegateway.com
The nation's? Or the individuals making up the nation? I could see how the nation might be saved by getting rid of the less desirable individuals, and therefore "all Israel" being saved would not mean "all members of Israel" being saved.
Think "corporately," so yes, the nation.
"And so all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25)
Not when Paul is writing to Titus. Yet he speaks of a common faith between them, as if it's an odd thing that a Jew and a gentile would believe the same thing.
Um... Titus is a "Greek"... unless the Titus in Paul's epistle of the same name, and the Titus in Galatians 2 are two different people...?
Is not Paul just saying that he and Titus have a common faith in Titus 1:4?
Jude, too, speaks of a common salvation--
As I explain below, Jude is talking to those under the Gospel of the Kingdom (ie, the New Covenant). Within that "dispensation," those who are saved under it are "common" to each other, no?
both groups are being saved from a common enemy.
Not common to the other, though, which I think you've somehow assumed...
You might refuse to believe it, but that was the point of my thread about who the letters were written to.
See below.
So He's not the Jews' savior, just the messiah?
I didn't say that. (negative inference fallacy)
And He's not the BOX's Christ, just their savior?
(I'm going to assume you meant "Body's" here.)
Yes, Jesus Christ is not the Body's "Christ."
Again, I point out that Paul only uses the word anointed once, and it's not in reference to Christ. We are "Christians," anointed by God. (2 Corinthians 1:21)
You're making different things that are the same, and for no valid reason.
Except they're not the same, which is a valid reason to make the distinction.
We're not.
Again, we're making a distinction between Israel and the Body of Christ.
On the contrary, I would accuse you of mashing together the Body of Christ and Israel, claiming they are the same, when you shouldn't.
Yes. Both dispensations (the "dispensation" of the New Covenant, and the dispensation of the grace of God) were in effect at the same time.
The Remnant were under (the dispensation of) the New Covenant, and those in the Body of Christ were and are to this day under the dispensation of grace.
Paul, Peter, Jude, John, and I believe James as well, spent much of their epistles trying to help the Jews and gentiles love and accept each other, so they wouldn't be thinking of each other as a different group, but brothers.
Right. Why does that mean that two different dispensations couldn't coexist?
It wasn't I, but I remember being confused by it for a time.
Ok.
I agree there were two peoples (actually 3, when you count the Samaritans) then they were joined together in a momentous way, including the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, to show they all had the same spirit. Which is why I don't understand why you want to maintain the groups as different, separate, distinct.
You've jumped to a desired conclusion, here, which is why you don't understand the distinction.
When I say "two peoples," I'm not talking about "Jews vs Gentiles" (which I can tell that you thought I was talking about by the fact that you mentioned the Samaritans).
I'm talking about one group being Israel, the people of the circumcision, being made up of Jews and proselyte Gentiles (again, Gentiles have always been allowed to become a part of Israel, as long as they submitted to the law), and the other group being the Body of Christ, being made up of neither Jew nor Gentile, because there is no distinction in it.
Each group has different rules to be followed, because they are under "different programs."
It's literally why we refer to them as "dispensations," the greek word being the word we get "economy" from,
oikonomia, literally, "house rules."
Jude begins his letter with this:
Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
Greeting to the Called - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
www.biblegateway.com
"Preserved in Jesus Christ."
You might think that's talking about the Body of Christ, but it's not.
Israel's "house rules" were that those under the New Covenant were preserved in Christ, but they had to stay in Christ in order to be preserved. If they departed from Him, they would not be preserved. (Which is the exact antithesis of "eternal security.)
"If you remain in Christ, you bear much fruit. But if you do not, you will not be preserved."
That's not at all like what Paul teaches those in the Body of Christ!
So? Luke was with Paul. So He wrote about Paul. Paul was obviously chosen for special duty by Christ
Why?
Why was Paul chosen for special duty?
I agree that he was, but did not God already have twelve other well educated people to use? I mean, He already told them to go out into the world, didn't He?
So why Paul at all?
--not to create a different group with a different purpose,
Because you say so?
Scripture says that Paul was sent to the Gentiles to preach a mystery, that being the Body of Christ, that [we] should be fellow heirs and partakers of [God's] promise in Christ.
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
The Mystery Revealed - For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles—
www.biblegateway.com
but to join the two into one (the Samaritans were already accepted by the 12, probably because they were circumcised),
This assumes that the two groups I was speaking about above were "Jews and Gentiles" and not "Israel and the Body of Christ."
And, rather than "join the two into one," It was more of "tear down the division between the two."
despite some serious pushback from the elitist church in Jerusalem.
I think I know what you're talking about here, but could you provide the chapter and verse?
That's very interesting, but it not being explained in the scriptures that way makes your particular understanding suspect.
It's explained by the context!
Go read Acts again, and try to get a bird's eye view of what's going on with Israel.
I think you'll find that what I said fits it better than you might think!
Or the transition of the body of Christ from a focus on Israel to a focus on the gentiles.
This begs the question that Israel and the Body of Christ are the same group, when they're not.
The Plot isn't the only, or even the best way to read the scriptures, no offense meant to Bob.
I beg to differ.
