May I ask...

[Hoping]

Read it as I'm not stupid enough to fall for your attempted distractions.

Still no answer?

 

[Right Divider]

Still no answer?

Still not taking the bait... that's correct.

 

[Hoping]

Not even close.
You're trying to explain away the verses as if they're talking about different things.
They're not.

They are different things.
James' words are about the works/deeds that illustrate our/their conversion.
Paul's words were about the lack of the Mosaic Law's work's necessity for conversion.

The verses mean EXACTLY what they say, and are, in fact, antithetical to each other.

I agree that they are of different concerns.

Paul says that you cannot be saved by works. James says that you must do works in order to be saved.

Paul's works are "of the Law", and James' works are the good we must do for our neighbors.
Paul fought against the Law's ordinances, including circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, tithing, etc. for conversion/salvation.
James taught of the necessity of proving our faith through love for neighbors by doing good on their behalf.
If we don't, the faith is a sham.

The problem isn't a matter of when the works are done, or even what works are being done. It's a matter of whom their audience is.

Both wrote to the churches.

This is why we say that reading other people's mail as if it were addressed to you will only result in confusion, and you're a prime example of this.

As none of the bible is addressed to "Hoping", I can hardly agree with the separation between brothers that your POV institutes.
God's wisdom runs throughout all the books of the bible, and are beneficial for every reader.

The issue is resolved when you realize that Paul is speaking to Gentiles, and that James is speaking to a YET FUTURE group of the children of Israel, yes, relative to the present, those who will go through the Great Tribulation, when God will return to working with Israel under the New Covenant.

I am surprised you don't think Israeli believers cannot benefit from reading Romans.
And more surprised you think James is writing to the yet future, end times, generations.
Though I count myself as a future generation from the time James was written, many of his point seem like direct conversation in the present tense.
Is there really nothing in James' letter that applies to you?
Not even..."Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17) ?

 

[Hoping]

I like using this example: A father will tell his 4-year-old, "Never light a match, it's not a toy." The father will then tell his 14-year-old, "The house is a bit too cold. Light a fire in the fireplace for us." Did the father contradict himself? No. Different message for two completely different audiences.

Good example.
And as it was not a contradiction, so too Romans' and James' discussion of works are not contradictions.

 

[Hoping]

Paul was baptized by a law abiding Jew that did NOT have any knowledge of the gospel of the grace of God.

I thought he was baptized by Ananias at Damascus.
Ananias certainly didn't become a Christian without God's grace.

Neither did Paul at that time! Paul learned this later as God revealed it to him by continued revelations.

2Cor 5:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)
(5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. (5:17) Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he][ is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Paul followed the RISEN Jesus Christ and NOT the Jewish one.

I am sure glad I am not in the flesh anymore.
But so too are the Israeli believers.

 

[Hoping]

Still not taking the bait... that's correct.

I can understand your fear of the answer.
We can proceed without it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

They are different things.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

I agree that they are of different concerns.

Then you aren't agreeing with me.

Paul's works are "of the Law", and James' works are the good we must do for our neighbors.

Saing it doesn't make it so.

Paul fought against the Law's ordinances, including circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, tithing, etc. for conversion/salvation.

Then you clearly don't know Paul's epistles.

James taught of the necessity of proving our faith through love for neighbors by doing good on their behalf.
If we don't, the faith is a sham.

Not even close.

Both wrote to the churches.

Wrong.

As none of the bible is addressed to "Hoping", I can hardly agree with the separation between brothers that your POV institutes.

Then you don't know my position.

God's wisdom runs throughout all the books of the bible, and are beneficial for every reader.

Indeed. You seem to ignore it, though.

I am surprised you don't think Israeli believers cannot benefit from reading Romans.

Supra.

And more surprised you think James is writing to the yet future, end times, generations.

Wrong.

Is there really nothing in James' letter that applies to you?

Where did I say that?

Not even..."Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17) ?

Supra.

 

[Right Divider]

I can understand your fear of the answer.

You are a liar.

We can proceed without it.

You are a poser.

 

[Right Divider]

I thought he was baptized by Ananias at Damascus.
Ananias certainly didn't become a Christian without God's grace.

Ananias was a devout Jew who knew nothing of the gospel of the grace of God.

Acts 22:6-16 (AKJV/PCE)
(22:6) And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. (22:7) And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? (22:8) And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. (22:9) And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. (22:10) And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. (22:11) And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. (22:12) And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt [there], (22:13) Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. (22:14) And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. (22:15) For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. (22:16) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[Hoping]

Ananias was a devout Jew who knew nothing of the gospel of the grace of God.

Acts 22:6-16 (AKJV/PCE)
(22:6) And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. (22:7) And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? (22:8) And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. (22:9) And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. (22:10) And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. (22:11) And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. (22:12) And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt [there], (22:13) Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. (22:14) And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. (22:15) For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. (22:16) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Yes, the converts of the land had yet to be called Christians.
Paul's conversion is in Acts 9 and the converted were first called Christians in Acts 11.
I don't figure anyone came to Jesus without God's grace being involved, no matter what they were called.

 

[Hoping]

Great example.

Matt 10:9-10 (AKJV/PCE)
(10:9) Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, (10:10) Nor scrip for [your] journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Luke 22:35-36 (AKJV/PCE)
(22:35) And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. (22:36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Is there a difference in there?
Luke 22 is referring to, bringing to mind, the events of Matt 10.

 

[Hoping]

After 31 posts, this is what I learned mid-Acts-dispensationalism offers from those who adhere to mid-Acts-dispensationalism.
1 It is true.
2 It eliminates biblical contradictions.
3 We are to follow Christ like Paul did.
(Number 3 isn't really offered to me, but commanded of me.)

Nothing else?
Not freedom?
Or the Spirit of the living God?
Or salvation?

 

[way 2 go]

After 31 posts, this is what I learned mid-Acts-dispensationalism offers from those who adhere to mid-Acts-dispensationalism.
1 It is true.
2 It eliminates biblical contradictions.
3 We are to follow Christ like Paul did.
(Number 3 isn't really offered to me, but commanded of me.)

Nothing else?
Not freedom?
Or the Spirit of the living God?
Or salvation?

mid Acts dispensation is free from works salvation
salvation is by faith alone

(Romans 4:1-6) [1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, has found? [2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; but not before God. [3] For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [6] Even as David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works,

 

[Right Divider]

After 31 posts, this is what I learned mid-Acts-dispensationalism offers from those who adhere to mid-Acts-dispensationalism.
1 It is true.
2 It eliminates biblical contradictions.
3 We are to follow Christ like Paul did.
(Number 3 isn't really offered to me, but commanded of me.)

Nothing else?
Not freedom?
Or the Spirit of the living God?
Or salvation?

You really are completely brain dead.

 

[Hoping]

mid Acts dispensation is free from works salvation
salvation is by faith alone

(Romans 4:1-6) [1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, has found? [2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; but not before God. [3] For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [6] Even as David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works,

Thank you.
Circumcision, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, and dietary rules were certainly written against by Paul.
Col. 2 provides some further evidence.
With the final atonement for sin provided by Christ's blood, days of atonement and sacrifices for sins were also dismissed.
Not to mention sin itself.

 

[steko]

Thank you.
Circumcision, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, and dietary rules were certainly written against by Paul.
Col. 2 provides some further evidence.
With the final atonement for sin provided by Christ's blood, days of atonement and sacrifices for sins were also dismissed.
Not to mention sin itself.

Christ fulfilled the spring feasts for Israel's appointed times...Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and 50 days later Shavuot.
If the days of atonement are dismissed as you have said then when did the fall feast appointed times for Israel take place, Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles?

 

[Derf]

After 31 posts, this is what I learned mid-Acts-dispensationalism offers from those who adhere to mid-Acts-dispensationalism.
1 It is true.
2 It eliminates biblical contradictions.
3 We are to follow Christ like Paul did.
(Number 3 isn't really offered to me, but commanded of me.)

Nothing else?
Not freedom?
Or the Spirit of the living God?
Or salvation?

You forgot
4 There's some remaining difference between the body of Christ Christians and the kingdom of Israel Christians that must be maintained on pain of being scorned, though no one can adequately explain why.

 

[Hoping]

You forgot
4 There's some remaining difference between the body of Christ Christians and the kingdom of Israel Christians that must be maintained on pain of being scorned, though no one can adequately explain why.

Thank you.
I can't understand the separation of brothers there.
Seems anti-Semitic in nature.

 

[Hoping]

Christ fulfilled the spring feasts for Israel's appointed times...Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and 50 days later Shavuot.
If the days of atonement are dismissed as you have said then when did the fall feast appointed times for Israel take place, Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles?

I can't say, as I am not an OT Jew.
As past sin has been washed away by the blood of Christ, (at least to those who have had that blood applied to them by faith in water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins), why would animals still need to be sacrificed?
Jesus was the Lamb of God !

 

[Derf]

Thank you.
I can't understand the separation of brothers there.
Seems anti-Semitic in nature.

Anti something, for sure.