Matthew 12:40

[clefty]

clefty,
re: "Thing is...He was risen that first day...but was also risen the next day...and is still risen today"

That would be an issue for a different topic.

Ya think?

Nawww...this thread is about Jonah and counting 3 days and 3 nights...when He rose needs to be included...the walk to Emmaus was the 3rd day since He was arrested...Friday Sabbath Sunday walking...not included in the Jonah count ending before day break that first day when the tomb was discovered empty early in the morning...He of course was risen indeed...the day prior...on the healing Sabbath...

 

[rstrats]

clefty,
re: "Ya think?"

I don't think it, I know it.



re: "Nawww...this thread is about Jonah and counting 3 days and 3 nights..."

It's not. It's about 1 issue and only 1 issue:

1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth".

2. There are some who believe that a calendar day begins and ends at sunset.

3. Of those there are some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

4. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when His spirit left His body).

5. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

6. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.

7. I'm simply asking anyone who falls in that group of believers to provide examples to support that belief of commonality; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

 

[clefty]

clefty,
re: "Ya think?"

I don't think it, I know it.

ok ok...this is your thread...lol

re: "Nawww...this thread is about Jonah and counting 3 days and 3 nights..."

is included

It's not. It's about 1 issue and only 1 issue:

then you list 6 including the Jonah counting...ha

1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth".

from the time He was paid for until He rose...3 days 3 nights inclusive

2. There are some who believe that a calendar day begins and ends at sunset.

just one day does...day of Atonement is why instructions so specific as it includes the 9th’s evening...

3. Of those there are some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

ok...I believe He rose on Sabbath

4. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when His spirit left His body).

I believe it is Jerusalem the temple area

5. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

yup that’s why this is about Jonahs 3 day 3 night count...he wasnt dead...

6. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.

nope...

7. I'm simply asking anyone who falls in that group of believers to provide examples to support that belief of commonality; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

Oh ok...

May He lead...

 

[genuineoriginal]

genuineoriginal,
re: "This is what the early Christian church believed that the three days and three nights meant:"

That would be an issue for a different topic.

No, this is the answer to you challenge.
It really doesn't matter whether non-Christians read Matthew 12:40 as meaning a 72 hour period of time consisting of three days and three nights or whether non-Christians thought that "three days and three nights" could mean any part of the first day, followed by night-day-night and any part of the third day.

It only matters what the Christians (believers in Jesus as the Christ) believed was the fulfillment of that prophecy in the first century after the crucifixion.
The documented evidence is that the Christians in the first century after the crucifixion believed the fulfillment was a death and burial on a Friday (day of preparation), spending Saturday (the Sabbath) in the grave, and rising on Sunday (the Lord's Day).

 

[rstrats]

genuineoriginal,
re: "No..."

Yes. Your comments deal with issues for a different topic.

 

[rstrats]

clefty,
re: "Oh ok..."

No problem. Perhaps someone new looking in may know of examples.

 

[rstrats]

In thinking about it, I realize that using sunset or sunrise makes no difference to this topic.

 

[rstrats]

clefty,
re: "then you list 6 including the Jonah counting...ha

Those 6 were merely setting forth the requirements for those to whom this topic is directed.

 

[rstrats]

Point #6 in post #502 should be changed to read: To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language

 

[rstrats]

Someone new looking in may know of examples.

 

[rstrats]

Three of the more usual explanations that are given for the lack of a 3rd night with a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection are:

1. The count of days and nights began when the Messiah was arrested at night in the Garden.

2. The 3 hours of darkness while the Messiah was on the cross was counted as the 1st night.

3. The Messiah was using common figure of speech of the period when He said that three days and three nights would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".

This topic is only concerned with the 3rd explanation, i.e., that it was common to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.

 

[rstrats]

Perhaps someone new visiting this topic who believes the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and who thinks He was using common figure of speech/colloquial language in Matthew 12:40 might know of examples to support the idea of commonality.

 

[rstrats]

Let me change the wording which apparently may be causing confusion with regard to the topic's issue.

There are some folks who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week. The Messiah said that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 days and 3 nights. Of those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb. However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved with the Messiah's time in the tomb. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who try to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language. And that is the issue of this topic, i.e., the commonality of saying that a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred. I'm simply asking anyone who may fall in the above group of believers to provide examples to support the belief of commonality.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Let me change the wording which apparently may be causing confusion with regard to the the topic's issue.

There are some folks who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week. The Messiah said that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 days and 3 nights. Of those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb. However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved with the Messiah's time in the tomb.

The reason that we Christians think the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and the resurrection took place on the 1st day of the week is because that is the record passed down to us from the people who lived within 80 years of the crucifixion and had access to the eyewitnesses.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians Shorter and Longer Versions Chapter IX.—Reference to the history of Christ. ~ 107 CE On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost; and before sunset He was buried. During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection.

To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who try to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language. And that is the issue of this topic, i.e., the commonality of saying that a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred. I'm simply asking anyone who may fall in the above group of believers to provide examples to support the belief of commonality.

It doesn't matter whether it was a common figure of speech or not, since the historic record of the eyewitnesses and the second hand accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection all say that Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation (the 6th day of the week) and rose on the 1st day of the week.

Are you trying to prove that Jesus was never crucified and resurrected?
Or are you trying to prove that we can't trust the accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus?

 

[rstrats]

genuineoriginal,
re: "It doesn't matter whether it was a common figure of speech or not..."

It does for the purpose of this topic.



re: "Are you trying to prove that Jesus was never crucified and resurrected?

What???? Of course not. What the heck have I written that would cause you to ask such a question?




re: "Or are you trying to prove that we can't trust the accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus?"

No, not for the purpose of this topic. I simply am asking anyone who believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language, to provide actual examples/instances to support the assertion of common usage.

That is the one and only issue of this topic, i.e., the commonality of saying that a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

 

[Theo102]

There are some folks who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week. The Messiah said that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 days and 3 nights. Of those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb. However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved with the Messiah's time in the tomb. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who try to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language. And that is the issue of this topic, i.e., the commonality of saying that a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred. I'm simply asking anyone who may fall in the above group of believers to provide examples to support the belief of commonality.

I don't know of anything that would support that commonality, but here are a couple of related points:

The sign of Jonah is related three times, and only once is the time in the heart of the earth mentioned.


Luke 24

44	And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45	Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46	And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

The best match for this is Hosea 6:2

Hosea 6​​​​​​​

2	After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

 

[rstrats]

Theo102,
re: "I don't know of anything that would support that commonality..."

You're in a long list of like minded folks. However, there is always the possibility that someone new visiting this topic sometime in the future may know of examples.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, not for the purpose of this topic. I simply am asking anyone who believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language, to provide actual examples/instances to support the assertion of common usage.

That is the one and only issue of this topic, i.e., the commonality of saying that a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

I have not found any justification for the claim that "three days and three nights" is a common figure of speech for part of one day, a night, another day, another night, and a possible part of a third day.
Nor have I found any justification for the claim that Jesus was buried for three days and three nights in contradiction of His statement that He would "rise on the third day."

Was Jesus correct when He said He would spend "three days and three nights" in the earth or was Jesus correct when He said He would "rise on the third day"?
Can these two contradictory statements be reconciled through debate?

The only reason I can see for debating the issue of whether "three days and three nights" is correct or whether "rise on the third day" is correct is to cast doubt on the reality of the crucifixion and resurrection.

According to the earliest written records, the early Christians taught that the crucifixion took place on the sixth day of the week (now called Friday) and the resurrection took place on the first day of the week (now called Sunday).

If you think otherwise, please provide documented evidence that the early Christians believed that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday and was raised from the dead at sunset on the following Saturday.

 

[rstrats]

genuineorginal,
re: "I have not found any justification for the claim that 'three days and three nights' is a common figure of speech..."

Then this topic doesn't apply to you.



re: "Nor have I found any justification for the claim that Jesus was buried for three days and three nights in contradiction of His statement that He would 'rise on the third day'."

That's an issue for a different topic.



re: Was Jesus correct when He said He would spend 'three days and three nights' in the earth or was Jesus correct when He said He would 'rise on the third day'?"

That's an issue for a different topic.



re: "The only reason I can see for debating the issue of whether 'three days and three nights' is correct or whether 'rise on the third day' is correct is to cast doubt on the reality of the crucifixion and resurrection."

That's an issue for a different topic.




re: "According to the earliest written records, the early Christians taught that the crucifixion took place on the sixth day of the week (now called Friday) and the resurrection took place on the first day of the week (now called Sunday)."

And I would ask them the same question.




re: "If you think otherwise, please provide documented evidence that the early Christians believed that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday and was raised from the dead at sunset on the following Saturday."

That would be an issue for a different topic.

 

[genuineoriginal]

genuineorginal,
re: "I have not found any justification for the claim that 'three days and three nights' is a common figure of speech..."

Then this topic doesn't apply to you.



re: "Nor have I found any justification for the claim that Jesus was buried for three days and three nights in contradiction of His statement that He would 'rise on the third day'."

That's an issue for a different topic.



re: Was Jesus correct when He said He would spend 'three days and three nights' in the earth or was Jesus correct when He said He would 'rise on the third day'?"

That's an issue for a different topic.



re: "The only reason I can see for debating the issue of whether 'three days and three nights' is correct or whether 'rise on the third day' is correct is to cast doubt on the reality of the crucifixion and resurrection."

That's an issue for a different topic.




re: "According to the earliest written records, the early Christians taught that the crucifixion took place on the sixth day of the week (now called Friday) and the resurrection took place on the first day of the week (now called Sunday)."

And I would ask them the same question.




re: "If you think otherwise, please provide documented evidence that the early Christians believed that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday and was raised from the dead at sunset on the following Saturday."

That would be an issue for a different topic.

This topic is about whether Jesus lied when he said one of the following or whether we must reconcile the apparent contradiction:

Luke 9:22 22 Saying, [JESUS]The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.[/JESUS]

Matthew 12:40 40 [JESUS]For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.[/JESUS]

If you think that is not the topic, then you are mistaken.