ECT Madism refuted by the Bible.

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Danoh

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Sorry, but like my experience the other night with the D'ist on Joel 3. it was so suffocatingly complicated that by the end he was asking if it made sense, which it did not.

The eschatology chart of the average D'ist looks like the laminated play calling card carried around by football coaches. They typically sell for $19.99 on TV!!! It is koolaid and is nothing at all as sane and precious as Eph 2-3. You don't know me and you don't know what I'm talking about.

D'ism was invented to salve the Protestant-Catholic friction of the 1800s. That's commendable to try to get past that, but it was horrible workmanship.

So much for your calling for playing nice with you :rotfl:

As I noted elsewhere...

Your problem, Interplanner is that you have wasted decades in the writings of men supposedly about the Bible. You come away from all that concluding you know what's what.

Fact is you are Biblically illiterate - your every post littered with someone else's conclusions along with a dash of your own based on said conclusions.

You consistently misquote Scripture references while very adept at talking the endless histories you continue to waste your time in.

I know you alright - you are a carbon copy of countless others just like you.

But it is too late for you to see this obvious problem.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
So much for your calling for playing nice with you :rotfl:

As I noted elsewhere...

Your problem, Interplanner is that you have wasted decades in the writings of men supposedly about the Bible. You come away from all that concluding you know what's what.

Fact is you are Biblically illiterate - your every post littered with someone else's conclusions along with a dash of your own based on said conclusions.

You consistently misquote Scripture references while very adept at talking the endless histories you continue to waste your time in.

I know you alright - you are a carbon copy of countless others just like you.

But it is too late for you to see this obvious problem.


You're way too general Danoh. If you can just deal with one word or case at a time. What you just wrote is a perfect description of yourself and most of those in 2P2P or D'ism.

You also don't know what kind of books I'm referring to. You are talking and regularly recommend your system guys--theologs, doctrinaires. I'm talking about lexical and linguistic scholars; Bruce, Cullmann, Hengel, Gaston, Nolland, Morris, Rhoads. I'm talking about part-archeologists and part-archivists like Michael Grant on Roman history.

Your system guys spend hours behind the scenes and lines piecing together theology puzzles. Mine do not. They could care less where a system ends up.

At the end of the day, the hostility toward Christ in Judaism always was that his Gospel was going to the nations. They really didn't want that, and definitely didn't want that to happen without the Law being prominent. Acts 15's resolution to the law is...not very prominent. But it was workable and it was how David's fallen and raised tent would include all mankind.

I'm D'ism-illiterate, not Biblically illiterate.

I wish you would shut up your posts that are generalist insults and stick to an particular exegetical question. Deal?
 

Lazy afternoon

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Neh 9:7 Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
Neh 9:8 And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

LA

Deu 10:22 Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.

LA

1Ki 4:21 And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river (Euphrates)unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.

LA
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
They cannot understand male-female issues in marriage.

Actually, I wish MAD people would see how complicated they are. Eph 2-3 is quite simple about Israel's promises. but mention it to MAD people and they can be as complicated as the IRS.

Perhaps you're not smart enough to understand? Have you considered that?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Perhaps you're not smart enough to understand? Have you considered that?


No I haven't considered that. the passage (Eph 2-3) does not seem complicated. They think it is. When I listen to their rendition, they seem complicated. They have all these programs they are trying to mesh and sync which are irrelevant to the meaning of the passage.

The same happens with Acts 13's sermon. After they get a hold of it, it is so qualified, complicated and conditioned that I can't recognize anything. If that's 'smart' I will not be 'smart.'
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Do you have a point to make or are you just posting random verses?


It is one of many verses from the OT that show that geo-political things promised to Israel in certain passages have already been fulfilled. There are several in Joshua. There are a number of things to notice.

1, those aspects of Israel's promises never matter to the apostles, in their commissioned preaching (you could say it mattered in Acts 1 where they were lagging in understanding about what the mission was supposed to be)

2, there is a geo-political hazard to Israel in the 1st century if they do not enter into God's mission. It was the destruction of Jerusalem. There are tons of warnings that this would happen. The earliest of Paul's letter says it was as good as done, though the event was still a couple decades out.

3, I would like to know why these people who think there are geo-political (and therefore theocratic) promises 'left over' to be fulfilled think that when there are actually already two episodes when they were fulfilled: 1, the conquest and 2, the return from Babylon. Given the fact that the DofJ takes place as warned in Dan 9 after the return from Babylon, the geo-political promises become almost a game, and God becomes a gamer. You would now have 3 different episodes to sort through (or, to sort promises out in) and I do not believe that is the intent. Lk 21 and 2 Th 1 say that the full wrath of God upon Israel was dispensed in the DofJ; another round of fulfillment and destruction would simply trivialize things and be totally unbiblical.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Sorry, but like my experience the other night with the D'ist on Joel 3. it was so suffocatingly complicated that by the end he was asking if it made sense, which it did not.

The eschatology chart of the average D'ist looks like the laminated play calling card carried around by football coaches. They typically sell for $19.99 on TV!!! It is koolaid and is nothing at all as sane and precious as Eph 2-3. You don't know me and you don't know what I'm talking about.

D'ism was invented to salve the Protestant-Catholic friction of the 1800s. That's commendable to try to get past that, but it was horrible workmanship.

This guy is just a bag of logical fallacies.

He throws in some 'appeal to tradition', 'guilt by association' and 'poisoning the well' fallacies but the main thrust of his argument is and example of 'the plain truth' fallacy which implies that the truth is always simple by nature and only enemies of the truth would seek to make it complicated.

His argument takes the following form: "Because I think Dispensationalism is too complicated, it is therefore false."

My response is two fold:

1. Complexity does not equal false nor simplicity equal truth.

2. The accusation of Dispensationalism being excessively complicated is false to begin with. In fact, the basics are quite simple to understand and the whole system has as a core hermeneutic that the bible is to be taken at it most obvious meaning whenever possible. In short, if there is a passage of scripture that confuses you, read it to a third grader and ask him what it means. He'll get it right almost every time. Dispensationalism tries very hard not to per-interpret scripture (i.e. bring one's doctrine to the text) nor to explain passages away as meaning something other that what it seems to say. Of course some passages are more difficult than others but the point here being that it doesn't take a PhD in theological studies to understand the Dispensational hermeneutic, all you have to do to understand the bible is to read it. Further, what's so complicated about the idea that Israel has been cut off (Romans 9) and that God now treats all humanity alike whether Jew or otherwise and that therefore there are certain key differences between this dispensation and others that came before or that will come after? In short the modern church is not Israel and aught not act as though they are or as though the promises made to Israel pertain to anyone other than to Israel. There's nothing terribly complicated about that!

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I don't understand the vague reference to Ephesians chapters 2 & 3. Both chapters, as well as the rest of the book says what it means and means what it says. There's nothing there that conflicts with dispensationalism, in fact, quite the contrary.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
This guy is just a bag of logical fallacies.

He throws in some 'appeal to tradition', 'guilt by association' and 'poisoning the well' fallacies but the main thrust of his argument is and example of 'the plain truth' fallacy which implies that the truth is always simple by nature and only enemies of the truth would seek to make it complicated.

His argument takes the following form: "Because I think Dispensationalism is too complicated, it is therefore false."

My response is two fold:

1. Complexity does not equal false nor simplicity equal truth.

2. The accusation of Dispensationalism being excessively complicated is false to begin with. In fact, the basics are quite simple to understand and the whole system has as a core hermeneutic that the bible is to be taken at it most obvious meaning whenever possible. In short, if there is a passage of scripture that confuses you, read it to a third grader and ask him what it means. He'll get it right almost every time. Dispensationalism tries very hard not to per-interpret scripture (i.e. bring one's doctrine to the text) nor to explain passages away as meaning something other that what it seems to say. Of course some passages are more difficult than others but the point here being that it doesn't take a PhD in theological studies to understand the Dispensational hermeneutic, all you have to do to understand the bible is to read it. Further, what's so complicated about the idea that Israel has been cut off (Romans 9) and that God now treats all humanity alike whether Jew or otherwise and that therefore there are certain key differences between this dispensation and others that came before or that will come after? In short the modern church is not Israel and aught not act as though they are or as though the promises made to Israel pertain to anyone other than to Israel. There's nothing terribly complicated about that!

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I don't understand the vague reference to Ephesians chapters 2 & 3. Both chapters, as well as the rest of the book says what it means and means what it says. There's nothing there that conflicts with dispensationalism, in fact, quite the contrary.



You are not very familiar with how D'ism has fared down through time. If you go back to the heyday of Ryrie who has a chapter in D'ISM TODAY that expressly says there are 2 watertight programs and peoples, you have the core of the problem: a complication. Everything you look at from that point on will be subject to a complication that you might actually be reading something for people to know 2000 years from now.

May I then please define complicated as 'attempting to ground on flimsy prooftexts around which everything else must dangle, and for which we need tons of teachers to teach the dangling.' Those texts are the end of Mt 23 about 'until you say 'blessed is he...' and Rom 11:26 about 'all Israel...saved...' There are also countless discredited texts, for ex., Acts 13's sermon punchline, or Eph 2-3 about the promises to Israel or Rom 9:26 which supports the 'Israel' that is both Jew and Gentile with 4 distinct OT quotes.

I grew up in it and have listened to it for 40 years; none of this is guesswork or rumor or 2nd hand. I have spoken directly to Sauerwein and Walvoord.

One of the complications you mentioned is about Israel being cut off. That's not the complication. the complication is that after that happened (referring to the ethne as such), D'ism says that the ethne is to be the focus of God's work once again in the future. So you are minding your own business reading somewhere, and the D'ist says no, that has to do with the _______ in the future. Or that such and such an OT passage can't be about the believer because it is about the millenium. Or that what the apostles say about a passage is not even known while 3 D'ist teachers are quoted about it (Amos 9). Or that Ps 2, 16, 110 may be the most commonly quoted passages from the Psalms, but the D'ist quotes 89 and Ezek 38, 39 100x more often than those three.

So in another attempt to be simple: the NT is the authoritative reading of the OT. The D'ist reading is very complicated, ie, manipulated to fit a system.

As you know from the list of 10 propositions about NT eschatology, one of the other big complications is the avoidance of Gal 3:17. This tells us what really got replaced theologically. But D'ism has come along and called something else replacement theology. This is not just complication, it is confusion. Could it be that the reason D'ism did this is because it truly has the same beliefs as Judaism, which Gal 3:17 was referring to?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
You are not very familiar with how D'ism has fared down through time.
You are unfamiliar with the extent to which I couldn't care less about how dispensationalism has fared down through the years.

If "it fared pretty well over the course of time" standard was a valid one then all of Israel would have been wise to drop Moses like a hot rock 500 years (or more) before Jesus was born!

If you go back to the heyday of Ryrie who has a chapter in D'ISM TODAY that expressly says there are 2 watertight programs and peoples, you have the core of the problem: a complication. Everything you look at from that point on will be subject to a complication that you might actually be reading something for people to know 2000 years from now.
Not that I accept the premise but so what?

What is true is true.

May I then please define complicated as 'attempting to ground on flimsy prooftexts around which everything else must dangle, and for which we need tons of teachers to teach the dangling.'
If you think that's what dispensationalism is, you're as ignorant as your are full of yourself. I'm the most strident dispensationalist you'll ever find and I REFUSE to debate anyone based on proof-texting.

Those texts are the end of Mt 23 about 'until you say 'blessed is he...' and Rom 11:26 about 'all Israel...saved...' There are also countless discredited texts, for ex., Acts 13's sermon punchline, or Eph 2-3 about the promises to Israel or Rom 9:26 which supports the 'Israel' that is both Jew and Gentile with 4 distinct OT quotes.
This is idiotic. Where are you getting this stupidity from?

I grew up in it and have listened to it for 40 years;
This was a lie. You might think we are all stupid but we're not.

none of this is guesswork or rumor or 2nd hand. I have spoken directly to Sauerwein and Walvoord.
I do NOT believe you.

One of the complications you mentioned is about Israel being cut off. That's not the complication. the complication is that after that happened (referring to the ethne as such), D'ism says that the ethne is to be the focus of God's work once again in the future. So you are minding your own business reading somewhere, and the D'ist says no, that has to do with the _______ in the future. Or that such and such an OT passage can't be about the believer because it is about the millenium. Or that what the apostles say about a passage is not even known while 3 D'ist teachers are quoted about it (Amos 9). Or that Ps 2, 16, 110 may be the most commonly quoted passages from the Psalms, but the D'ist quotes 89 and Ezek 38, 39 100x more often than those three.
This paragraph is PROOF that you neither "grew up in it" or even know what you're talking about at all.

You're a hack and have an axe to grind.

Good bye!
:wave2:
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
You are unfamiliar with the extent to which I couldn't care less about how dispensationalism has fared down through the years.

If "it fared pretty well over the course of time" standard was a valid one then all of Israel would have been wise to drop Moses like a hot rock 500 years (or more) before Jesus was born!


Not that I accept the premise but so what?

What is true is true.


If you think that's what dispensationalism is, you're as ignorant as your are full of yourself. I'm the most strident dispensationalist you'll ever find and I REFUSE to debate anyone based on proof-texting.


This is idiotic. Where are you getting this stupidity from?


This was a lie. You might think we are all stupid but we're not.


I do NOT believe you.


This paragraph is PROOF that you neither "grew up in it" or even know what you're talking about at all.

You're a hack and have an axe to grind.

Good bye!
:wave2:

Excellent post.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Sorry, but like my experience the other night with the D'ist on Joel 3. it was so suffocatingly complicated that by the end he was asking if it made sense, which it did not.

The eschatology chart of the average D'ist looks like the laminated play calling card carried around by football coaches. They typically sell for $19.99 on TV!!! It is koolaid and is nothing at all as sane and precious as Eph 2-3. You don't know me and you don't know what I'm talking about.

D'ism was invented to salve the Protestant-Catholic friction of the 1800s. That's commendable to try to get past that, but it was horrible workmanship.

I surely hope you don't take offence to this, but, I believe you don't know what you're talking about. Perhaps you got ahold of some nasty "anti-logic" sort of medication or something? Not knowing you personally, it's difficult to make an accurate diagnosis. We'll just consider this a "hypothesis" at this time.
 

Danoh

New member
Every single individual I have read or heard who goes against Dispensationalism in general, has the exact same basic approach and resulting conclusion...

Off they went to look for it in history books...

Why do they do this? Why does the Dispy who is a fool do that also - run off to the history books?

Because for them, that is how what Scripture is talking about is sorted out - "read books about it; and then read their same reasoning into the Scripture...its been reliable for that, so lets see what my favorite book writers have to say about Dispensationalism..."

You take someone like that with years and years in that - I seriously doubt such an individual has much objective reasoning left in them...

I came close to that path myself once, some years back when I almost bought into an Acts 2 Dispy's advice - "just read books about the Bible..."

Only to find the same old holes I was already leary of...

Much later; when I ran into them after my learning the Mystery; his books based reasoning failed him miserably and I found he was no real friend...

So I find it humorous that people like Interplanner right off assume that Mid-Acts is another books based hand me down..
 
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