Lunch with my colleagues

Jose Fly

Jose Fly

New member
Last week at lunch, some colleagues and I were discussing current events and the topic of creationism came up (the recent primary win by the nutjob in Texas was the impetus). When one of our newer biologists mentioned creationism, those at the table who've known me for a while said with a laugh "Oh, you should talk to Jose Fly. He looooooooves arguing with creationists". Our new biologist looked at me kinda funny, in a "seriously" sort of way and asked "Do you really?" I answered that yeah that's true in a general sense, which prompted him to ask me to explain.

So I explained that I don't really "argue" with creationists as much as I "poke and prod just to see how ridiculous they'll get, which I then get a good laugh at". He asked for an example, so I showed him one of the threads in this forum. After reading a bit, he frowned, looked at me with a furrowed brow and asked "Why in the world do you subject yourself to such stupidity?" I laughed and this is basically what I said...

See, we all know how things are in the world of science. Every single accredited university that has a science program teaches evolution and that the universe is billions of years old. Every single biotech firm operates under the paradigm of evolutionary theory. Every single scientific organization that has voiced their opinion on the issue has unequivocally stated that evolution is reality. Every single biological journal publishes multiple papers per year expanding our understanding of how evolution works, how it proceeded in the past, and uses that information to add to our scientific knowledge. And when you get into "billions of years" it's just as clear. IOW, in the earth and life sciences, evolution and "billions of years" are an essential part of the entire framework and have been for a very long time.

At the same time, not one accredited university, scientific organization, biotech firm, scientific journal, or other productive scientific endeavor incorporates or utilizes creationism or the idea that everything is less than 10,000 years old in any way, shape or form. Creationism hasn't accomplished or even contributed to anything science in well over a century. From a scientific standpoint, creationism is 100% irrelevant and has been for a very long time.

So the state of the issue from a scientific perspective couldn't be any more clear, right? There is no debate, there is no controversy, there really isn't even anything to discuss.

Yet if you come into forums like the one I showed you, you encounter all sorts of Christians who will tell you...apparently with a straight face and in all seriousness (if you could see them)...that the exact opposite is true. Evolution is failed and/or disproven, and has not only failed to contribute anything to science in any way at all, it has actually "hindered science". Creationism is the superior explanation, has produced all sorts of wonderful contributions to modern science, and is without any doubt perfectly in line with all the evidence.

And as the thread you just looked at shows, when you ask these creationists to back any of that up, they either call you names, sputter incoherently, or just ignore the question.

So what we have is a group of people who will insist to their dying day with absolute certainty that black is white, up is down, and water isn't wet...and if you dare question them, well you're just an ignorant troll.

That's what I find so fascinating and amusing, to the point where I keep doing it. It's just sooooooo entertaining to watch people who I'm sure are for the most part functional in the world engage in such absolutely bizarre behaviors while simultaneously being completely oblivious to the absurdity of it all. It's kinda like the old "freak shows" at the circus. You're part amused, part stunned, part sympathetic, and you just can't stop looking.​

After I explained, he laughed and said "Ok, I guess I understand....sorta", but I didn't get the impression that he really did. So I explained that it isn't so much the subject matter (evolution and creationism) that matters as it is how the advocates of the denialist position behave. We could be arguing over geocentrism, or reptilian aliens, or UN Agenda 21....and my reasons for being there would stay the same. It just so happens that I have a fair bit of experience with creationism and I'm a biologist so that's the subject I choose to do this with.

Then he got it.

Anyways...just thought I'd share. Imagine that...a table full of biologists talking about ToL! :D
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member

1 Timothy 6:20-21
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.​

If Christians accept the false science of evolution, then they have erred concerning the faith.
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
Jose, what you wrote reminded me of what Mark Twain wrote in "Christian Science".


"When I, a thoughtful and unblessed Presbyterian, examine the Koran, I know that beyond any question every Mohammedan is insane; not in all things, but in religious matters. When a thoughtful and unblessed Mohammedan examines the Westminster Catechism, he knows that beyond any question I am spiritually insane. I cannot prove to him that he is insane, because you never can prove anything to a lunatic—for that is a part of his insanity and the evidence of it. He cannot prove to me that I am insane, for my mind has the same defect that afflicts his. All Democrats are insane, but not one of them knows it; none but the Republicans and Mugwumps know it. All the Republicans are insane, but only the Democrats and Mugwumps can perceive it. The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane. When I look around me, I am often troubled to see how many people are mad. To mention only a few:
The Atheist, The Theosophists, The Infidel, The Swedenborgians, The Agnostic, The Shakers, The Baptist, The Millerites, The Methodist, The Mormons, The Christian Scientist, The Laurence Oliphant Harrisites, The Catholic, and the 115 Christian sects, the Presbyterian excepted, The Grand Lama's people, The Monarchists, The Imperialists, The 72 Mohammedan sects, The Democrats, The Republicans (but not the Mugwumps), The Buddhist, The Blavatsky-Buddhist, The Mind-Curists, The Faith-Curists, The Nationalist, The Mental Scientists, The Confucian, The Spiritualist, The Allopaths, The 2000 East Indian sects, The Homeopaths, The Electropaths, The Peculiar People, The—
But there's no end to the list; there are millions of them! And all insane; each in his own way; insane as to his pet fad or opinion, but otherwise sane and rational. This should move us to be charitable towards one another's lunacies. I recognize that in his special belief the Christian Scientist is insane, because he does not believe as I do; but I hail him as my mate and fellow, because I am as insane as he insane from his point of view, and his point of view is as authoritative as mine and worth as much. That is to say, worth a brass farthing. Upon a great religious or political question, the opinion of the dullest head in the world is worth the same as the opinion of the brightest head in the world—a brass farthing. How do we arrive at this? It is simple. The affirmative opinion of a stupid man is neutralized by the negative opinion of his stupid neighbor no decision is reached; the affirmative opinion of the intellectual giant Gladstone is neutralized by the negative opinion of the intellectual giant Newman—no decision is reached. Opinions that prove nothing are, of course, without value any but a dead person knows that much. This obliges us to admit the truth of the unpalatable proposition just mentioned above—that, in disputed matters political and religious, one man's opinion is worth no more than his peer's, and hence it followers that no man's opinion possesses any real value. It is a humbling thought, but there is no way to get around it: all opinions upon these great subjects are brass-farthing opinions."
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
genuineoriginal said:

1 Timothy 6:20-21
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.​


If Christians accept the false science of evolution, then they have erred concerning the faith.
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Nick M

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
What is "creationism"? Does that have something to do with the creation? The word makes no sense.
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Jose Fly said:
Ah, gotcha.
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George lied to a woman and told her he was a marine biologist, then they were walking on the beach and a whale was in distress with a large crowd looking on. Somebody shouted "is anyone here a marine biologist?" Funny, because George had to wing it and pretend.
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
For Jose Fly, my question would be why do you find this willful ignorance and outright dishonesty funny?

For IOUAE my comment is that this is not two religious opinions canceling each other out (as your Twain quote suggests). It's a religious opinion trying to cancel out the results of real scientific investigation and evidence. To form and hold an opinion in the midst of one's own ignorance is one thing. But to maintain and promote it in the face of contradictory reason and the evidence of reality is quite another.
 
Jose Fly

Jose Fly

New member
PureX said:
For Jose Fly, my question would be why do you find this willful ignorance and outright dishonesty funny?
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I don't know....why do any of us find anything funny?

It's like if a guy tells me there are no such things as red cars, I show him a red car parked on the side of the road, and he keeps insisting that red cars don't exist despite the red car right in front of him.

Most people would throw their hands up in the air, figure the guy to be an idiot or insane, and walk away. For whatever reason, I'll keep showing him the red car for the entertainment value of seeing just how far he'll go in defending such an obviously absurd position.

I guess it's kind of a human behavior thing. I enjoy seeing how people respond to different situations, especially how people respond to being wrong.
 
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