Lifting & Fasting

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I meant to include your statement here in my reply. You are pointed the wrong way. Get those ideas from your head.
When I'm weight training to build muscularity (which I do NOT do when fasting), I will eat more carbohydrate because it helps build more muscularity. Not too much, but some. It also builds some fat, which I then have to reduce through dieting later. If I am careful to keep eating the right amount of protein (dieting but not fasting), I can preserve the muscularity while simultaneously cutting fat tissue.

This is the idea behind "bulk and cut". You grow muscularity, with the appropriate hypertrophy weight training, easier when you eat some carbohydrate with your protein. Your body just likes having some easy to digest energy (carbohydrate) when it's building muscularity (which it does when you impose on it appropriate hypertrophy weight training). But it also builds some fat tissue.

As I said earlier in the thread, you can get stronger while fasting, meaning peak strength weight training (meaning 1-5RM range), but you're unavoidably going to lose muscularity, so it's a balancing act.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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but you're unavoidably going to lose muscularity, so it's a balancing act.
Demonstrably false. Much like your arguments for the "Holy See". I am done here, your brain washing is not something I will change. Well marbled steaks is definitely bigger, you got that much right.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Demonstrably false.
Which part? That you're unavoidably going to lose muscularity when fasting? or that it's a balancing act?

Much like your arguments for the "Holy See". I am done here, your brain washing is not something I will change. Well marbled steaks is definitely bigger, you got that much right.
There's zero marbling in the muscularity of elite bodybuilders, you know this.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I gained about three LBS of muscle and three LBS of fat (c. 12,000 calorie surplus over the course of the bulk, so if it was 24 days long, that's a 500 calorie daily surplus, which is two Snickers bars a day on top of your normal maintenance diet) on a hypertrophy bulk. As long as I can reduce the fat while retaining the muscle, I don't see the problem. You can't grow three LBS of muscle in a month or two unless you're willing to pay the price later on by dieting to reduce the fat, but by continuing to eat more than enough protein, and continuing to hypertrophy weight train, you can reduce a lot of that fat without losing hardly any muscle.

And, it will be faster to lose the fat, than it was to gain the muscle plus fat. So the fat is slow in coming, and quick in leaving, truly transient. You just have to keep it to two Snickers bars a day or thereabouts–don't jump to six Snickers bars or you'll add more fat than muscle, which just means you're going to have to diet for far longer, during which it is difficult to eat (because it's a caloric deficit, less food), and difficult to weight train (because it's a caloric deficit, recovery and restoration between workout sessions isn't as efficient).

That dieting period is very low carbohydrate compared to a maintenance or bulking diet. I can't help that muscle grows naturally more quickly in a caloric surplus. And your body needs protein for lots of things other than maintaining muscularity, so you have to eat more than enough protein (and especially on a diet, from lean, highly concentrated protein sources), and also continue to hypertrophy weight train, to stimulate your muscularity enough to just maintain your current muscularity, while your body fat lowers, which is during times of low insulin, because insulin inhibits adipose catabolism, because insulin is busy with adipose anabolism (tissue building). It's there to build fat tissue, not let it decompose and digest, insulin is the opposite thing that you want if you want fat tissue to anabolize quickly, but you can still lose fat quickly if you eat just Snickers bars, even if it's all you eat, just as long as it's below your maintenance calorie diet. (You'll lose muscle if you only eat Snickers bars, but for instance, say your daily caloric requirement at maintenance dieting is 2250. That's nine Snickers bars. If you eat literally only seven Snickers bars a day, you'll lose two and a half LBS of fat a month at that rate.)

But seven Snickers bars don't have enough protein, so you will lose muscularity. So you'll weigh less than just the two-and-a-half LBS reduced of fat at the end of the month, because you're also going to lose muscle mass, and your bathroom scale doesn't know the difference, so you're going to be happy to have lost 4-5 LBS on the scale, but except, 1-2 LBS was muscle, which you really don't want to celebrate as good weight loss. When you lose weight, you just want to lose fat, not muscle. It's not a good goal to lose muscularity, and it's even irresponsible and irrational to plan to lose muscularity (all other things being equal). It's disordered.

So say you fast: You can't hypertrophy train while fasting, you're not going to be able to keep up with your progressions (because of the inefficient recovery and restoration between workout sessions), but you can keep getting stronger if you have more runway available for neurological adaptations to peak strength weight training, which is going to be something like twice as heavy as hypertrophy weight training. iow this isn't going to help a competitive strong man (who has already run out of neurological adaptation runway), but it can help a civilian who's interested in fasting without losing strength. Then after the fast, you'll be as strong or stronger, and you'll be able to commence hypertrophy training at the same or higher weights, because you're as strong or stronger.
 
So start with about 120 grams of protein a day. 160 grams is better but 120 grams is a good start.

And it has to be discounted, according to how well your body digests it, which means your age (because your body digests protein worse as you get older) and the source. Protein powders are processed in factories but they are digested well, so you don't have to discount them, but for instance meats like chicken fish and beef and other seafood, the discount is like 0.9, because they're really easy to digest, and then there's grains and legumes and nuts, and they're not really well digested, so you have to discount them like 0.5

Dairy like yogurt, milk, cottage cheese are really well digested, you basically don't have to discount dairy protein; and the same with eggs I think.

So combine together the protein discount with the protein concentration (roughly how many of the calories the food has is from protein? something like skinless chicken breast is like 80% of its calories are from protein, which is really good) to plan out how you're going to get in your daily protein.

Once you have that down, then you can figure out what you want to do for weight training. But the protein kind of sets the table for weight training to really help change your body. Eating enough protein a day, taking into account discounting, and spreading it out (don't eat all your protein all in one meal), enables you to take advantage of any inadvertent stimulus to grow muscularity you might already be doing during your days, like carrying heavy stuff or sprinting up stairs or whatever it might be.

There may be some risk to your kidneys or something else with boosting your protein intake in your diet, so obv don't take advice from strangers on the internet without checking with a trusted medical professional.
So I have to say it's seems your advice has been working out quite nicely for me so far. It's only been 2.5 weeks since I started to regulate my protein intake (120g of digested protein, mostly via chicken fillets because its easier to divide them) and I am starting to notice more definition. Even my upper abdominals are just barely starting to define, which is something I've never had before, even when I was younger.
My weight is still exactly the same. So I assume I have built at least some muscle and lost some fat during this time, which is exactly what I want right now.
 
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