Lent is ungodly and sinful

C

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
Crucible said:
Lent would be more meaningful if it were about permanently giving something up. Otherwise, I have to agree somewhat with the OP- it's just making a spectacle of one's self and doesn't ultimately do anything of value.
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I don't agree with Lent (or Easter or Christ-Mass) being celebrated, but I think the idea is giving something up for a time that isn't intrinisically sinful in order to focus more on God... I could see why it would be a joke if someone were saying they were going to "temporarily" give up sin but I dont think that's the idea
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Christian Liberty said:
I prefer to just call it December 25 :p

Seriously though... so many baptists think Lent is "papist" but that Christmas and Easter aren't. I respect and agree with the consistency.
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Baptists are in no way alone in that, of course.

The real issue is, or should be, WHY someone observes any of these. With regard to Lent, a Catholic has confirmed in this very discussion that observing the fasts is a sin issue, so it's very serious thing.
 
F

fzappa13

Well-known member
musterion said:
Once a year you choose to give up, for a brief period, something you normally enjoy. In and of itself, that's neither good nor bad.

But if you're honest, you who observe Lent will explain and justify your observance with one or more of the following:

a. it gives you that sense of quiet pride and self-satisfaction (aka self-righteousness) when you hint to others what you're giving up, as some have already trumpeted here on TOL,

b. you're just bowing to social pressure from religious others who'd frown on you not playing along, or

c. you think it makes you more holy and acceptable to God.

d. Probably some mix of the three.

Also, that Lent is temporary (once a year, briefly) is hypocritical...if something's a big enough deal to surrender "for God" once annually, how do you justify indulging it the rest of the year? Is God really going to be impressed because you give up bon-bons or R-rated movies for a several weeks? Lent is purely of the flesh -- substantially no different in motive than Muslims gorging themselves at night during their days of their "holy" fasts.

So let's call Lent what it actually is: a man-pleasing, God-impressing, self-centered holiday to indulge the flesh under the guise of denying the flesh. It's plain old hypocritical pride -- just like the Pharisees of old whitening their faces during fasts and blowing trumpets when they toss pennies to the poor, all in order to appear more sincere and to impress the rubes with their devoutness.

That's you when you observe Lent.

There is no motivation you can come up with for Lent, as it is practiced, that will justify it as acceptable to God.
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How about turning your rear end to the Sabbath?
 
glassjester

glassjester

Well-known member
musterion said:
No, you said what I expected. I was just telling you what the Bible says so that you will be without excuse at the Judgment.
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If you already knew the answer, why ask?

Can you find the part of the Bible that says musterion's interpretation is always correct?

And what was the point of the whole "what happens if you don't fast?" line of questioning? What were you trying to prove?
 
brewmama

brewmama

New member
musterion said:
How are you basically any different from a Catholic?
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I am not a member of the Catholic Church, we don't agree that the Bishop of Rome has supreme authority, the filioque should not be in the creed, there are differences in theology of original sin and Mariology, we are less legalistic and philosophical, and we don't believe in the development of doctrine. We have never had (or required) a reformation, but practice the original Apostolic faith.

For starters.

I am not necessarily defending purgatory (or condemning it), just showing how your own beliefs are not so different than some of the Catholics. The Orthodox view Catholics and Protestants as 2 sides of the same coin, neither are purely the original Church, but act in response and reaction to each other. As you do, you act out of hatred for the Catholic Church.
 
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C

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
musterion said:
Baptists are in no way alone in that, of course.
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Well and "non-denominationals" and so forth. Historically Presbyterians did not celebrate any holiday except the Christian Sabbath (I know you'd dispute the sabbath on covenant theology grounds)... modern Presbyterians aren't as consistent on this point but our history is not to celebrate these days. Whereas Anglicans and Lutherans rarely have a problem with Lent.

The real issue is, or should be, WHY someone observes any of these. With regard to Lent, a Catholic has confirmed in this very discussion that observing the fasts is a sin issue, so it's very serious thing.
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This is true. Though most Anglicans and Lutherans who celebrate these days don't think its a sin not to. Most Baptists de facto act like celebration of Christmas and Easter is required even though they don't directly claim that.
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Christian Liberty said:
Well and "non-denominationals" and so forth. Historically Presbyterians did not celebrate any holiday except the Christian Sabbath (I know you'd dispute the sabbath on covenant theology grounds)... modern Presbyterians aren't as consistent on this point but our history is not to celebrate these days. Whereas Anglicans and Lutherans rarely have a problem with Lent.



This is true. Though most Anglicans and Lutherans who celebrate these days don't think its a sin not to. Most Baptists de facto act like celebration of Christmas and Easter is required even though they don't directly claim that.
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No suprise there. They also deny that water baptism impacts salvation, while recording their annual convert stats according to the number of people they get in the dunk tank.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
brewmama said:
You certainly are selective about your Bible verses. It doesn't say WHEN judgment occurs, and most every other Biblical source says it's at the Judgment Day. Not at death.

And one of your own said in answer to:

What do you think will happen if we DON'T do the good works that God has prepared for us to walk in?


How is this basically any different than purgatory?
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It's nothing like purgatory....there is no waiting involved.
 
Nihilo

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
chrysostom said:
yes
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I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. That isn't how I read the Catechism. I read there that there is a very real and great divide between objective immorality, and sin. I read that in order for the eternal guilt of a moral offense, grave or otherwise, to impute to the moral offender, the offender must be acting in complete and total, unequivocal freedom and liberty when so offending. It is only during such a circumstance that a moral offense's guilt is imputed to the offender, and only then is that same moral offense sin.

The Church does teach to confess grave moral offenses regardless, however, which---and this is only my personal reading, understand---helps us when we are in particular spiritual trouble, which can manifest as our commission of grave moral errors.

No hard feelings. :)
 
Nihilo

Nihilo

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Banned
brewmama said:
I am not a member of the Catholic Church, we don't agree that the Bishop of Rome has supreme authority, the filioque should not be in the creed, there are differences in theology of original sin and Mariology, we are less legalistic and philosophical, and we don't believe in the development of doctrine. We have never had (or required) a reformation, but practice the original Apostolic faith.

For starters.

I am not necessarily defending purgatory (or condemning it), just showing how your own beliefs are not so different than some of the Catholics. The Orthodox view Catholics and Protestants as 2 sides of the same coin, neither are purely the original Church, but act in response and reaction to each other. As you do, you act out of hatred for the Catholic Church.
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That's interesting. I see it (infer) that the Holy Catholic Church's bishops are the true bishops, and possessed the true Apostolic oral tradition, which the Holy Orthodox Churches' bishops have now lost.

For instance, part of the Apostolic oral tradition is evidently that the Church should if offered it, assume temporal/secular power, to prove to the world that even though the Church is the kingdom of God in seed form here on earth, that we should never intermingle or entangle the Church with secular/civil power, and that the freedom of religion must be a paramount human right. These lessons the Church taught the world during the Reformation.

It is one of the many ways in which our Lord wants to reign at this time in history. It makes sense to me that once everybody caught wind of how wonderful the Church is, that they would force her to be king, but this is not what our Lord wants; but sometimes the only way that dull human beings can ever learn a lesson, no matter how important, is to witness the horror that our own limited ideas can cause.
 
brewmama

brewmama

New member
Nihilo said:
That's interesting. I see it (infer) that the Holy Catholic Church's bishops are the true bishops, and possessed the true Apostolic oral tradition, which the Holy Orthodox Churches' bishops have now lost.

For instance, part of the Apostolic oral tradition is evidently that the Church should if offered it, assume temporal/secular power, to prove to the world that even though the Church is the kingdom of God in seed form here on earth, that we should never intermingle or entangle the Church with secular/civil power, and that the freedom of religion must be a paramount human right. These lessons the Church taught the world during the Reformation.

It is one of the many ways in which our Lord wants to reign at this time in history. It makes sense to me that once everybody caught wind of how wonderful the Church is, that they would force her to be king, but this is not what our Lord wants; but sometimes the only way that dull human beings can ever learn a lesson, no matter how important, is to witness the horror that our own limited ideas can cause.
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The current Pope (and he is just one in a line of Pope's) has stated "In particular, in that Decree the Catholic Church acknowledges that the Orthodox Churches “possess true sacraments, above all – by apostolic succession – the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy” (15). The Decree goes on to state that in order to guard faithfully the fullness of the Christian tradition and to bring to fulfilment the reconciliation of Eastern and Western Christians, it is of the greatest importance to preserve and support the rich patrimony of the Eastern Churches. This regards not only their liturgical and spiritual traditions, but also their canonical disciplines, sanctioned as they are by the Fathers and by Councils, which regulate the lives of these Churches."

I know the Catholic Church tries often to reunite with the Orthodox Church, but very few Orthodox are interested. It would be fine with me though.
 
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