Knight's pick 10-08-2011

[Lon]

This bears repeating: Truth AND relationship.
Truth without relationship is a cold hard hammer. We are 'lights' and 'salt' on earth. Jesus picked these representative terms for His church carefully.
"People don't care what we know until they know we care."
Jesus and the Pharisees
In His first confrontations with the Pharisees, Jesus was congenial: Luke 5
<DIR>

<DIR>Luk 5:20 And seeing their faith, He said to him, Man, your sins are forgiven you.
Luk 5:21 And the scribes and Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, except God alone?
Luk 5:22 But knowing their thoughts, answering, Jesus said to them, Why do you reason in your hearts?
Luk 5:23 Which is easier, to say, Your sins are forgiven you; or to say, Rise up and walk?
</DIR>Luk 5:24 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins, He said to the paralytic, I say to you, Arise, and take up your cot and go to your house.

</DIR>Jesus continues with simple explanations without confrontation in chapter 6 and 10 with the pharisees, explaining patiently why and from where His authority comes.
Even in chapter 11, where they accuse Him of having power from the devil to cast out demons, He responds by explanation, shortly after He begins strong corrections against their beliefs and practices. It is in the beginning of Chapter 12 where I draw my Truth/relationship paradigm: Fear not man who can destroy the body, but God who is able to keep life. We must speak truth. In Luke 12:49 Jesus says He hasn't come to bring peace, but a sword, pitting relatives against relatives. This is the war of truth that cannot be neglected. In the middle of chapter 16, He continues without vitriol in His responses to the Pharisees indignation and opposition.
In Luke 19:45 Jesus is indignant about the money trading in the temple and He overturns the money tables.

Relationship without truth isn't caring. In Jesus' ministry, He chose specific situations for His response. When the confrontation called for truth, He spoke it plainly. When He was confronted with angst, he responded as needed to the situation. He was compassionate toward the harlot and adulteress, yet spoke undiluted truth to them.

In emulation, we must be truthful. We must be compassionate until we deem such is ineffective for truthful conveyance.

My rule of thumb then is: Truth and relationship but truth when relationship isn't possible. For me, this sums up Jesus' actions and ministry and is my paradigm for emulation. I will be as congenial as possible but will not sacrifice truth for its sake.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

I do but good luck with it as some seem insistent that you can choose to be attracted to that which you simply aren't, despite any protestations you offer to the contrary unfortunately....

lain:

It's not about choosing whom you're attracted to -- it's recognizing that some people are off-limits. Regardless of how attractive you may or may not find them.

If you want to have sex with men or married women, that's on you. I'm commanded not to do these sorts of things. And I'm not going to call that okay just because some other people see it that way. God says it's wrong.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

All right, I know I was drunk earlier, but what happened to the edit button?

 

[Arthur Brain]

It's not about choosing whom you're attracted to -- it's recognizing that some people are off-limits. Regardless of how attractive you may or may not find them.

If you want to have sex with men or married women, that's on you. I'm commanded not to do these sorts of things. And I'm not going to call that okay just because some other people see it that way. God says it's wrong.

Then in context, who's to say the hairdresser TH refers to goes around having sex with men? He may well do for all I know but I value TH's assessment of his person and character above solely his actual orientation and consentual relations regardless.

And that seems to be the trouble for a lot of the more zealous when it comes to the subject of homosexuality. They simply want to paint gays as ogres and make them scapegoats for practically anything they find disreputable in society, and nine times out of ten it's due to personal hang ups rather than any genuine concern for the actual 'fabric of society' IMO. It's simply a soapbox opportunity to vent against those who they're personally disgusted by and have a platform for such to be heard.

Some of the measures the ultra zealous would deign would return us back to the dark ages frankly....

lain:

 

[One Eyed Jack]

I dunno about ogres. The one person in my family I love above all the rest is gay. And a medium. I worry about him.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I dunno about ogres. The one person in my family I love above all the rest is gay. And a medium. I worry about him.

Did he choose to be gay? Why do you love him above the rest if it's ok to answer publicly regarding that? If not then fair enough.

:e4e:

 

[alwight]

It's not about choosing whom you're attracted to -- it's recognizing that some people are off-limits. Regardless of how attractive you may or may not find them.

If you want to have sex with men or married women, that's on you. I'm commanded not to do these sorts of things. And I'm not going to call that okay just because some other people see it that way. God says it's wrong.

If you personally feel that you are commanded or under an obligation to obey a higher power then OK that's how it seems to you and how you comply is of course your own business.
Fine, be subjugated of you feel you must be which afaic is simply your own personal daft belief and is of no particular problem to you nor me. And happily since presumably you are not gay either then great, by all means do feel free to grovel away to your hearts content.

However for those like me who don't happen to consider themselves commanded or obliged by your particular higher power and doctrine then I really think it more than a bit rich for you to expect them (and me) to live out our lives according to your edicts or at least sticking to the rules that you personally feel obliged to follow.
But if someone also happens to be gay then your insistence that everyone is obliged to obey the same rules that you personally adhere to goes beyond this to becoming an unwanted interference imo.
IOW it's none of your business leave them alone.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Did he choose to be gay?

I've never asked.

Why do you love him above the rest if it's ok to answer publicly regarding that? If not then fair enough.

:e4e:

It's fine. He's never shown me anything but unconditional love, and I return it.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

If you personally feel that you are commanded or under an obligation to obey a higher power then OK that's how it seems to you and how you comply is of course your own business.
Fine, be subjugated of you feel you must be which afaic is simply your own personal daft belief and is of no particular problem to you nor me. And happily since presumably you are not gay either then great, by all means do feel free to grovel away to your hearts content.

However for those like me who don't happen to consider themselves commanded or obliged by your particular higher power and doctrine then I really think it more than a bit rich for you to expect them (and me) to live out our lives according to your edicts or at least sticking to the rules that you personally feel obliged to follow.
But if someone also happens to be gay then your insistence that everyone is obliged to obey the same rules that you personally adhere to goes beyond this to becoming an unwanted interference imo.
IOW it's none of your business leave them alone.

Did you even read the post you quoted? Where have I insisted that everyone is obliged to obey the same rules to which I personally adhere? I can't even get people like you to agree that morality is absolute.

 

[alwight]

Did you even read the post you quoted? Where have I insisted that everyone is obliged to obey the same rules to which I personally adhere? I can't even get people like you to agree that morality is absolute.

They aren't obliged being rather the point but do you simply have your own opinion?
No because from your own post you claim bluntly that "God says it's wrong." which would mean rather more than just your opinion to say a gay theist than to me.
Morality is relative btw.lain:

 

[Frank Ernest]

Knight, sod and aCW. I agree.

Others I refer to the prophet Isaiah 5:20-21 (KJV) :readthis:

Fabricating noble motives will not excuse an enabler or a sinner. Fabricating confusing and complicated rationalizations will not excuse an enabler or a sinner. Removing earthly legal prohibitions does not trump God's laws and commandments, nor does such action negate a compelling social interest. :nono:

On the currently contentious point, Leviticus 20:13 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (KJV). Final answer.

God did not create a screwed-up world into which some of us (as enlightened gods) were sent to correct His "errors." :surf:

 

[bybee]

Knight, sod and aCW. I agree.

Others I refer to the prophet Isaiah 5:20-21 (KJV) :readthis:

Fabricating noble motives will not excuse an enabler or a sinner. Fabricating confusing and complicated rationalizations will not excuse an enabler or a sinner. Removing earthly legal prohibitions does not trump God's laws and commandments, nor does such action negate a compelling social interest. :nono:

On the currently contentious point, Leviticus 20:13 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (KJV). Final answer.

God did not create a screwed-up world into which some of us (as enlightened gods) were sent to correct His errors. :surf:

I assume this barb is pointed at me? Well, well, well, I have not been called a "fabricator" before. My family would love it if I would learn to "Make nice". I don't!
So here goes, all of you hateful, judgmental, puffed up pomposities always find a scripture to justify your hatred of other persons, I said persons. And there is just as much Scripture which justifies that we need to love one another and leave judgment to God.
It has become increasingly obvious to me that any stance other than the most rigidly fundamentalist is not going to be tolerated here.
This is so sad.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

They aren't obliged being rather the point but do you simply have your own opinion?
No because from your own post you claim bluntly that "God says it's wrong." which would mean rather more than just your opinion to say a gay theist than to me.

It's what the Bible says. I'm just agreeing with it.

 

[alwight]

It's what the Bible says. I'm just agreeing with it.

If you can establish that it is more than just a doubtful man-made ancient text and actually is the word of God then I will become a theist.
I would personally respect your own opinion of what the Bible says or means to say rather more than that of one from a position of dogmatic adherence and obedience.

 

[bybee]

If you can establish that it is more than just a doubtful man-made ancient text and actually is the word of God then I will become a theist.
I would personally respect your own opinion of what the Bible says or means to say rather more than that of one from a position of dogmatic adherence and obedience.

Belief cannot be explained to a non-believer, nor can it be proven to a non-believer.
While the Bible is the foundation of our faith, it is not the only aspect of our faith. Belief is a living thing, not easily translated into mere words.
Perhaps this is a critical difference between believers and non-believers?
Non-belief can be expressed in words.
Life contains many mysteries not the least of which is faith in things unseen.... Peace, Pat

 

[alwight]

Belief cannot be explained to a non-believer, nor can it be proven to a non-believer.
While the Bible is the foundation of our faith, it is not the only aspect of our faith. Belief is a living thing, not easily translated into mere words.
Perhaps this is a critical difference between believers and non-believers?
Non-belief can be expressed in words.
Life contains many mysteries not the least of which is faith in things unseen.... Peace, Pat

It isn't the mysterious that is a problem for me Pat since I will happily accept that something is unknown rather than to simply suppose an answer.
It's those folks with a seeming unflinching certainty in what otherwise appears to be unknown and unexplainable that I find harder to accept.

 

[Granite]

Such an angry :madmad: little atheist. Accept Christ soon or you'll be dead from stomach cancer before your 15th birthday.

That's what I thought.:chuckle:

For those of us just joining or us who need a refresher this fellow used to pretend to be a member of Seattle PD. His lies, fake stories, and completely idiotic persona were transparent right away and he's since seemed to have abandoned the act.

You have a fake badge you wave around at bars, or something?

 

[Frank Ernest]

I assume this barb is pointed at me? Well, well, well, I have not been called a "fabricator" before. My family would love it if I would learn to "Make nice". I don't!

You assume incorrectly. Were I to do that, I would have replied to you directly.

So here goes, all of you hateful, judgmental, puffed up pomposities always find a scripture to justify your hatred of other persons, I said persons. And there is just as much Scripture which justifies that we need to love one another and leave judgment to God.

"Love one another" does not mean acceptance of what people do without question. Far from it. However, I did wonder about your sudden inference that what the Bible says is an application of "hateful ... etc." to justify hatred. I'm assuming you refer to some unreferenced Bible verses that would trump others. That is a very shaky game to play.

It has become increasingly obvious to me that any stance other than the most rigidly fundamentalist is not going to be tolerated here.
This is so sad.

You flying off the handle and blasting out some emotional argument based on a gross assumption is what's sad.

 

[serpentdove]

[T]he Founding Fathers found homosexuality to be detestable...

And more importantly, God did (Ge 6:5, 6, 1 Kin. 14:24).

 

[heir]

And more importantly, God did (Ge 6:5, 6, 1 Kin. 14:24).

Romans 5:6 KJV For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Galatians 3:22 KJV But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.