Kentucky clerk who refused gay couples taken into federal custody; ordered jailed

Foxfire

Well-known member

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
"The clerk, Kim Davis of Rowan County, Ky., was ordered detained for contempt of court and later rejected a proposal to allow her deputies to process same-sex marriage licenses that could have prompted her release."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/04/us/kim-davis-same-sex-marriage.html?_r=0

Sorry your google is broken.

Sorry you didnt check the facts, it was to allow them to issue them but with kims name on them still. Shes in contempt because she will not have her name on them, period.

The entire issue is that she doesnt want her name on them. :duh:

Now they are issuing them without a name signed on them, which isnt legal in kentucky.
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
Show and tell!!

Is your google broken? Are you unable to read the op?

Lang still doesn't agree with same-sex marriage and says so on her website but is allowing deputies in her office to issue the licenses, something that Davis objects to because the certificates bear her name as an elected official.

That is the entire issue and has been since the beginning, where have you been?
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Sharing Davis' glow is Liberty Counsel, which describes itself as a nonprofit that provides pro bono legal representation related to "religious freedom, the sanctity of life, and the family," funded by tax-deductible donations and grants. In 2012 those gifts reached just over $3.5 million and in 2013 topped $4.1 million, according to IRS filings.

The husband and wife team who founded and run Liberty Counsel, Anita and Matthew Staver, were paid $137,758 and $153,591, respectively, in 2013. The staff of five ran up $184,479 in travel expenses that year and spent $429,584 on conferences, conventions and meetings. Liberty Counsel paid one independent contractor over $600,000 for "email alert services," and another almost $500,000 for printing and mail services. "Case costs," were reported at $105,487.

Liberty's attorneys know they can't win the case in Rowan County. Same-sex marriage is legal since the Supreme Court's June 26 decision and it's Davis' job to issue marriage licenses.

So, why is Liberty Counsel marching alongside Davis in this losing cause? It takes a lot to keep that marketing machine humming and those executives paid, and the only way to keep those donations coming is to stay in the news. For that purpose a losing cause is just as good as, perhaps better than, a winning one.
So I was interested and looked around a little. Liberty Counsel's Matt Staver talks about the New Revolution Institute:

For $25 a month
(or for even more benefits, $1000 for 3 years)

New Revolution Institute is Liberty Counsel’s own, citizen-equipping online school, and one of the most powerful benefits of your Liberty Counsel partnership. NRI will give you certificate-level education on the true principles of citizenship, and much more!
NRI is launching with “Reclaiming True Liberty In The USA” — a primer on the true roots of patriotic citizenship. In the coming months, NRI will roll out additional modules to help enhance your role as a Christian citizen.
With the successful completion of each course, the student will be issued a handsome Certificate of Achievement as an acknowledgment and to proudly display!


As an aside: there's a video at the link above that begins with stirring patriotic music and religious themes. I'm definitely reminded of the psychological ways people are influenced towards conformity and deindividuation through classical conditioning (autonomic nervous system; conditioned emotional response to symbols, leaders, identity, perception of group threat, etc.) and conformity to the group via uniform activities such as music, marching, singing, prayer, and so on. Interesting to see it in action.


I wonder how much money Liberty Counsel is raising as a result of the publicity generated by this case?
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I haven't read through all the posts in this thread, but has anyone pointed out that this woman is a Democrat?

She ran, and was elected as a Democrat.

The reason I point this out is that Democrats don't care about the law, they only care about what they think is right.

If this woman was a Republican, that's all you would hear on CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, MSNBC, etc. They would make sure the word "Republican" was inserted before her name every time her name was used.

However, because she's a Democrat, it was never mentioned on any of the main stream media.
 

Foxfire

Well-known member
I see you are unable to read. No wonder you are disconnected.


402.110 Marriage license to be uniform and completely filled out.
The form of marriage license prescribed in KRS 402.100 shall be uniform throughout this
state, and every license blank shall contain the identical words and figures provided in the
form prescribed by that section. In issuing the license the clerk shall deliver it in its
entirety to the licensee. The clerk shall see to it that every blank space required to be
filled by the applicants
is so filled before delivering it to the licensee.
Unless Kim Davis' name is printed on EVERY Kentucky marriage license, then her name ISN'T printed on the ones issued from her office.

Kentucky Law doesn't specify that the county clerk even needs to sign the license. only that the APPLICANTS fill out all necessary information.

Issuance when clerk is absent

KRS 402.240 provides that in the absence of the county clerk, or during a vacancy in the office, the county judge/executive may issue the license and, in so doing, he shall perform the duties and incur all the responsibilities of the clerk. The county judge/executive shall return a memorandum to that effect to the clerk and the memorandum shall be recorded as if the license had been issued by the clerk.

The Judge/executive has authority to issue/authorize issuance of licenses and assumes all responsibilities.


http://e-archives.ky.gov/Pubs/AG/clerks_guide_marriage_law%281996%29.htm#Who may issue
 

StanJ

New member
I haven't read through all the posts in this thread, but has anyone pointed out that this woman is a Democrat?
She ran, and was elected as a Democrat.
The reason I point this out is that Democrats don't care about the law, they only care about what they think is right.
If this woman was a Republican, that's all you would hear on CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, MSNBC, etc. They would make sure the word "Republican" was inserted before her name every time her name was used.
However, because she's a Democrat, it was never mentioned on any of the main stream media.


This is totally irrelevant and sadly Demonstrates your bias against both the media and Democrats.
 

TracerBullet

New member
So ... they have been more consistent and devoted to their ONE, long term relationship as compared to her ... four marriages? There's a shocker ... but at least she made the news.

And fortunately her 15 minutes of fame is just about up
 

TracerBullet

New member
No one here is arguing that divorce is okay according to the scriptures as far as I can see? As for wedding rings and Christmas trees, I don't see any prohibition against them in the Bible. Nor do I see one against women wearing trousers.

As for cutting hair and wearing mixed fibres, neither of those rules apply today and one doesn't need to study much theology to understand that. There is a division between the moral and ceremonial law; something which theologians as far back as Thomas Aquinas recognised.

However, even if everything you said were true it would not change the fact that sexual activity between two members of the same sex is a sin. In fact, all sex outside of marriage - and by marriage I mean the biblical definition of marriage, is a sin.

and again i get to ask for chapter and verse where the bible says there is a division in the law into these categories you mention.
 

Traditio

BANNED
Banned
No one is saying that. What we're saying is, if you refuse to perform an important aspect of your job for whatever reason (within reason), you should either make reasonable accommodations (e.g., ensure there are others at the office who will perform the duties) or not take the job in the first place.

That sounds nice in abstracto (in the abstract or in general). Which is probably, of course, why you liberals insist on speaking about the matter in abstracto and using nice and vague language like "she didn't do her job," and so forth and so on.

What does that mean in concreto? And what do you mean by "important aspect of the job"? The liberal will insist that, in concreto, performing an abortion constitutes an "important aspect of the job" for a Catholic doctor or nurse. The liberal will insist that, in concreto, signing over a child to homosexual foster parents is "an important aspect of the job" for workers at a Catholic adoption agency.

So, you have one of the following options:

1. Either these things are not "important aspects of the job."
2. They are important aspects of the job, and faithful Catholics, Jews and Muslims cannot hold these positions.

You cannot simultaneously deny 1 and affirm 2. If murdering unborn children is "an important aspect of the job," then a Catholic cannot be a nurse or a doctor. End of story. Regardless of your personal misinterpretations of reality and of morality. If signing over a child to homosexul parents is "an important aspect of the job," then there cannot be Catholic adoption agencies. End of story.

And if signing marriage licenses for homosexuals is "an important part of the job," then Orthodox Christians, Muslims and Jews (or anyone, in fact, who has not been so utterly corrupted that the Natural Law still speaks to him in the inward depths of his conscience, whether he believe in an (allegedly) revealed religion or not) cannot hold the position.

That is what it comes down to. You cannot expect a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim (or anyone of right reason, for that matter) to have his convictions in the confines of his home and his church, but completely forget these things when he enters into the public sphere.

"I was just following orders" just rings hollow and you know it.


Sorry, but Jehovah's Witnesses doctors aren't giving blood transfusions to dying patients. Sorry, but Muslim bus drivers aren't transporting Jews to Synagogue. Sorry, but Satanic 911 operators aren't sending aid to churches.

This is the second time today, on two different media, that I've had an atheist liberal talk to me about JW and blood transfusions. You guys are supposed to be "free thinkers," huh? :nono:

These are silly objections for very obvious reasons.

Blood transfusions aren't intrinsice malum (intrinsically evil), nor have philosophers (as far as I'm aware) ever claimed such things. Jehovah's witnesses are exceptional in insisting that blood transfusions are morally prohibited. This is why you insist on talking about that particular cult, and not "Christians in general."

Blood transfusions are not a controversial moral topic. People do not generally have a difficulty with it. It has not historically been condemned in the western tradition.

Likewise with these utterly stupid comparisons to segregationist racism and the so called "religious objections" people had back then. Again, that was, historically speaking, exceptional. It was an anomology of those people in that society in that historical period.

Not so in the case of homosexual "marriage" and sodomy.

No, the standard "if you can't do your job, or aren't willing to make reasonable accommodations, you shouldn't be in that job" applies to everyone, not just members of particular faiths.

Supra. Your reply is purely rhetorical and you know it. :idunno:

If a gay person refused to issue marriage licenses to straight couples, he should also not be a county clerk. Understand?

Again, disanalogous. There's no comparison between heterosexual marriage and homosexual "marriage." Historically speaking, this is just true.
 

Traditio

BANNED
Banned
TH:

I have no further comments on the previous topic(s) of discussion. Ultimately, it reduces to the content of the 25 legal violations link and Fox news...and I really don't have the relevent knowledge or enthusiasm to continue on those particular topics. To my mind, these are more interesting and more under my "expertise," so to speak.

We differ. She's as entitled to her beliefs as anyone else. We're likely all hypocrites about something or at some point, but my understanding is that she converted after her latest marriage.

I didn't know that prior to reading various posts in this thread. Mea culpa. The point does stand that her current marriage may be invalid, but ultimately, it's no different from the rest of you protestants. Apparently, "no divorce" doesn't actually mean "no divorce" to you people, but that's another topic.

It doesn't violate her rights. She has no right to deny anyone their legal right to a thing because she really, really believes she should. It's on par with a racist denying service to a black over the mark of Cain nonsense that some racists paraded back in the day.

Utterly disanalogous for reasons indicated to Jose Fly above. Having reviewed the remainder of your reply, again, see my answer to Jose Fly. It basically applies to your response also.
 

TracerBullet

New member
T

Likewise with these utterly stupid comparisons to segregationist racism and the so called "religious objections" people had back then. Again, that was, historically speaking, exceptional. It was an anomology of those people in that society in that historical period.

Not so in the case of homosexual "marriage" and sodomy.




Again, disanalogous. There's no comparison between heterosexual marriage and homosexual "marriage." Historically speaking, this is just true.

Unable to actually demonstrate what you wish to believe is true you label it "utterly stupid". :thumb:
 

Traditio

BANNED
Banned
Unable to actually demonstrate what you wish to believe is true you label it "utterly stupid". :thumb:

They are utterly stupid comparisons (note, of course, that these words should not be understood as insulting to the persons who make them). Historically speaking, there is no comparison between segregationist racism and the JW prohibition of blood transfusions, on the one hand, and the moral prohibition of sodomy, on the other hand.

That's just a fact.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
She's denying them something they have a legal right to in contravention of the duties of her office. Couch that any way you like.
I don't think you can find any law that grants them the right you claim they have.
The principle of generalia specialibus non derogant does enforce the right to free exercise of religion from the First Amendment over some vague notion that men marrying men is a right contained in the ambiguous words of the 14th Amendment.

No one is denying her legal rights by insisting she uphold her office.
Of course she is being denied her God given rights to act according to her religious beliefs.

She assumed the position voluntarily. She doesn't have a legal right to violate the order she was given by the federal judge.
The federal judge does not have jurisdiction.

If she doesn't want to follow a legal order she is free to resign the office and more power to her.
The federal judge issued an unlawful order, not a legal order.
 

kiwimacahau

Well-known member
I don't think you can find any law that grants them the right you claim they have.
The principle of generalia specialibus non derogant does enforce the right to free exercise of religion from the First Amendment over some vague notion that men marrying men is a right contained in the ambiguous words of the 14th Amendment.


Of course she is being denied her God given rights to act according to her religious beliefs.


The federal judge does not have jurisdiction.


The federal judge issued an unlawful order, not a legal order.

Rubbish.
 
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