Josephus Records Doctrine of Immorality of the Soul and Punishment

[logos_x]

Polycarp,

I'm a Christian myself.
I don't say the entire church went apostate..I say that SOME church leaders changed prevailing doctrine to fit their own personal beliefs. They happened to believe in eternal torment, and managed to have all other views declared heretical...even though many Christian leaders held to the beliefs they condemned.
It was a political move that lead to some very dark things happening in "church" history.

I would say that the ONLY thing we've talked about that I disagree with you concerns the doctrine of Hell's nature. Your faith is so married to this doctrine that you can't even consider that there are other views...so much so that you think any other interpretation of the same scriptural data you believe in represents the work of the devil.
Since you hold that view, you have demonized my view.
So..I demonized yours.

Doesn't feel too good does it?

Now..Here's what I really believe...

I believe the church fell into error on many things throughout it's long history. I believe that one of the most damaging, and tenacious errors was and is the belief that one's views of God's judgement must only consider one position held by one theological school without allowing for any other possibility.

All reformers start out being accused of being false teachers Polycarp...so I'm in good company.

It's alright with me if you don't agree with universal reconciliation. It isn't necessary. Why to you insist that ALL of Christianity MUST agree with eternal conscious torment?

Anyway..it was an interesting debate. It's obvious we won't convince each other of anything. This debate has been going on since the beginning of Christianity...it's certain that it won't be resolved on TOL.

Everyone can see where we personally stand on this issue by now. I see no further need to continue our debate. I truely hope I have not offended you personally...but if I have, I'm sorry and apologize.

And so...here we stand. Hopefully you will at least stand with me in the one thing that really matters...Jesus is Lord of all!

God Bless you Polycarp.

 

[logos_x]

Quotes From Historians

Quotes From Historians

To everyone else...

Quotes From Historians

To my knowledge, all of the historians and theologians that I am about to quote taught the "Doctrine of Eternal Torment." Not one of them mentioned in their writings that they believed in the "Doctrine of the Restitution of All Things," or ultimate reconciliation. Unfortunately, most of you will probably not know these historians and theologians I am about to quote. That is very unfortunate, because it is these men and others like them that run the seminaries and Bible colleges and write the textbooks and Sunday school manuals.
Listen to some of the comments of the early Christians and then ask yourself, "Why are we not taught this today?" Also keep in mind that I will be quoting historians and theologians. They generally do not write for the understanding of the average person. They write for each other and use hard-to-understand English. Just read slowly and understand there will be a great reward for the effort.

The great church historian Geisler writes: "The belief in the inalienable capability of improvement in all rational beings, and the limited duration of future punishment was so general, even in the West, and among the opponents of Origen, that it seems entirely independent of his system" (Eccles. Hist., 1-212).

This statement is very significant because many modernists attribute to Origen's influence the fact that the vast majority of early Christians did not believe in eternal torment! Keep in mind these historians I am quoting do not embrace the "larger hope." What Geisler said in a nutshell was that the church believed in ultimate reconciliation, even many of those who opposed Origen.

The German theologian and historian Johann Christoph Doerderlin (1829-1888) writes: "In proportion as any man was eminent in learning in Christian antiquity, the more did he cherish and defend the hope of the termination of future torments." Later on, as when we read some of the early Christian writings, we will find this statement to be true; the more learned a Christian was in the Scriptures in the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, the more likely he or she was to see the "Doctrine of the Restitution of All Things." Those such as Augustine, who said he hated the Greek language, who read only the Latin Vulgate translation, began to be prone toward the "Doctrine of Eternal Torment."

One of several reasons for this was because the Greek word "aion," which meant "age," was translated into the Latin Vulgate as "aeternum" and "seculum." This was a serious mistake which also corrupted our English translations. This error was instrumental in changing the doctrine of the early Christians who believed that punishment was confined to "age." The Latin church, filled with unconverted pagans, separated themselves from the original languages and secluded themselves into the corrupted Latin Vulgate and began to teach what the pagan religions had taught for centuries--eternal torment.

Professor and historian Henry Nutcomb Oxenham informs us that the, "Doctrine of endless punishment was not believed at all by some of the holiest and wisest of the Fathers, and was not taught as an integral part of the Christian faith by any even of those who believed it as an opinion."

One of the ways of verifying this is to look at the earliest Christian creeds. None of them mention "eternal torment" as the final punishment of the wicked or unbelievers.

Historian Pfaff says: "The ultimate restoration of the lost was an opinion held by very many Jewish teachers, and some of the Fathers" (frag. anec.).

The famous Dietelmaier has this to say: "Universalism in the fourth century drove its roots down deeply, alike in the East and West, and had very many defenders."

It should be mentioned that the "universalism" taught by the early Christians has nothing to do with modern universalism. To the early Christians, salvation was given to all of mankind through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. This is Christian universalism; something very different from New Age beliefs.

Reuss writes, "The doctrine of a general restoration of all rational creatures has been recommended by very many of the greatest thinkers of the ancient church, and of modern times" (Hist. De la Theol. Apost.).

The world renowned Neander has this to say: "From two theological schools there went forth an opposition to the doctrine of everlasting punishment."

***The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1908) by Schaff-Herzog says in volume 12, on page 96, "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

The number of schools in the early church that taught ultimate reconciliation is an embarrassment to many modern church historians. Therefore, they often do whatever they can to hide these facts. These Christian Universalists who were clearly the majority of the early Church, believed that all mankind through Christ would be restored. They believed, and taught, and many laid down their lives for the belief that Jesus Christ was truly the Savior of the whole world.

***Remember, these historians just quoted were not "Universalists."

Also note that the school that taught "Eternal Torment" was in Rome, where the original Bible languages were abandoned and replaced with Latin. Those of you who are familiar with Daniel's image made up of four kingdoms are also probably aware that the legs of iron might speak of the Roman Empire.

********************************************************
What the People Believed

We just read that the majority of the schools taught ultimate reconciliation. But what did the average person on the street believe? I am going to quote three church leaders of that time period.

St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." I point out that he is not classified as a Universalist.

St. Jerome (342-420), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible and whose jealousy got him into an ugly scandal that stained the church, writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures."

The last person I want to quote regarding what the average early Christian believed, is the very champion of the doctrine of "Eternal Torment" himself--Saint Augustine. He stands right next to Emperor Constantine as a key figure leading the church away from the original teachings of the Old and New Testaments.
Augustine was in the Manichaean religion for nine years prior to becoming a Christian. This was an Eastern religion of fire worship. In this system, the universe would be divided forever between good and evil. The Romans and Greeks had a habit of incorporating the religions of the countries they conquered. The religions of the East flooded into the church after Constantine united church and state. Constantine provided the building materials to build this monstrous structure and Augustine largely built the theological structure.

His most famous writing was The City of God. Now listen to the champion of "Eternal Torment" regarding the view of Christian believers over this matter over four hundred years after Christ's resurrection: "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c.29).

Out of his own mouth, the hero of the eternal tormentors of Christendom, states that in his day many (perhaps the majority!) of Christians did not believe in endless torment and they did not deny the Holy Scriptures by believing it. In this period of time, the great teachers still read the new Testament in Greek, but Augustine admits that he "hated Greek."

So...were all of them wrong and only the partialist eternal tormentors right? Or was it the effects of language?

You decide.

 

[Polycarp]

Josephus Christ and the Apostles ALL AGREE

Josephus Christ and the Apostles ALL AGREE

Just look at Josephus and Comparre His Teachings with that of Christ's and the Apostles! It is simply unmistakble clear, they are the same teachings

1. NOW as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.

2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire,(Rev.19:20, 20:10,14,15) [/B] whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.

3. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.

Compare with Christ own words, Luke 16: 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom..”

4. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.

Compare with Christ’s own words in Luke 16:26"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”

5. This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead, not procuring a transmigration of souls from one body to another, but raising again those very bodies, which you Greeks, seeing to be dissolved, do not believe [their resurrection]. But learn not to disbelieve it; for while you believe that the soul is created, and yet is made immortal by God, according to the doctrine of Plato, and this in time, be not incredulous; but believe that God is able, when he hath raised to life that body which was made as a compound of the same elements, to make it immortal; for it must never be said of God, that he is able to do some things, and unable to do others. We have therefore believed that the body will be raised again; for although it be dissolved, it is not perished; for the earth receives its remains, and preserves them; and while they are like seed, and are mixed among the more fruitful soil, they flourish, and what is sown is indeed sown bare grain, but at the mighty sound of God the Creator, it will sprout up, and be raised in a clothed and glorious condition, though not before it has been dissolved, and mixed [with the earth]

(Compare with Paul’s words in 1Cor. 15: 37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.”)

"So that we have not rashly believed the resurrection of the body; for although it be dissolved for a time on account of the original transgression, it exists still, and is cast into the earth as into a potter's furnace, in order to be formed again, not in order to rise again such as it was before, but in a state of purity, and so as never to he destroyed any more. And to every body shall its own soul be restored. And when it hath clothed itself with that body, it will not be subject to misery, but, being itself pure, it will continue with its pure body, and rejoice with it, with which it having walked righteously now in this world, and never having had it as a snare, it will receive it again with great gladness. But as for the unjust, they will receive their bodies not changed, not freed from diseases or distempers, nor made glorious, but with the same diseases wherein they died; and such as they were in their unbelief, the same shall they be when they shall be faithfully judged.

6. For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment : and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ. For Minos and Rhadamanthus are not the judges, as you Greeks do suppose, but he whom God and the Father hath glorified: concerning whom we have elsewhere given a more particular account, for the sake of those who seek after truth. This person, exercising the righteous judgment of the Father towards all men, hath prepared a just sentence for every one, according to his works; at whose judgment-seat when all men, and angels, and demons shall stand, they will send forth one voice, and say, JUST IS THY JUDGMENT; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire,(Mk.9:44, 46, 48) and that WITHOUT END, and a certain fiery worm, NEVER DYING,(Mk.9:44,46, 48) and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with NEVER-CEASING GRIEFf: NEITHER WILL SLEEP GIVE THEM EASE to these men (Rev.14:10-11), nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance. But the just shall remember only their righteous actions, whereby they have attained the heavenly kingdom, in which there is no sleep, no sorrow, no corruption, no care, no night, no day measured by time, no sun driven in his course along the circle of heaven by necessity, and measuring out the bounds and conversions of the seasons, for the better illumination of the life of men; no moon decreasing and increasing, or introducing a variety of seasons, nor will she then moisten the earth; no burning sun, no Bear turning round [the pole], no Orion to rise, no wandering of innumerable stars. The earth will not then be difficult to be passed over, nor will it he hard to find out the court of paradise, nor will there be any fearful roaring of the sea, forbidding the passengers to walk on it; even that will be made easily passable to the just, though it will not be void of moisture. Heaven will not then be uninhabitable by men, and it will not be impossible to discover the way of ascending thither. The earth will not be uncultivated, nor require too much labor of men, but will bring forth its fruits of its own accord, and will be well adorned with them. There will be no more generations of wild beasts, nor will the substance of the rest of the animals shoot out any more; for it will not produce men, but the number of the righteous will continue, and never fail, together with righteous angels, and spirits [of God], and with his word, as a choir of righteous men and women that never grow old, and continue in an incorruptible state, singing hymns to God, who hath advanced them to that happiness, by the means of a regular institution of life; with whom the whole creation also will lift up a perpetual hymn from corruption, to incorruption, as glorified by a splendid and pure spirit. It will not then be restrained by a bond of necessity, but with a lively freedom shall offer up a voluntary hymn, and shall praise him that made them, together with the angels, and spirits, and men now freed from all bondage.

7. And now, if you Gentiles will be persuaded by these motives, and leave your vain imaginations about your pedigrees, and gaining of riches, and philosophy, and will not spend your time about subtleties of words, and thereby lead your minds into error, and if you will apply your ears to the hearing of the inspired prophets, the interpreters both of God and of his word, and will believe in God, you shall both be partakers of these things, and obtain the good things that are to come; you shall see the ascent unto the immense heaven plainly, and that kingdom which is there. For what God hath now concealed in silence [will be then made manifest,] what neither eye hath seen, nor ear hath heard, nor hath it entered into the heart of man, the things that God hath prepared for them that love him. (1Cor.2:9 “9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”)

8. In whatsoever ways I shall find you, in them shall I judge you entirely: so cries the END of all things. And he who hath at first lived a virtuous lift, but towards the latter end falls into vice, these labors by him before endured shall be altogether vain and unprofitable, even as in a play, brought to an ill catastrophe. Whosoever shall have lived wickedly and luxuriously may repent; however, there will be need of much time to conquer an evil habit, and even after repentance his whole life must be guarded with great care and diligence, after the manner of a body, which, after it hath been a long time afflicted with a distemper, requires a stricter diet and method of living; for though it may be possible, perhaps, to break off the chain of our irregular affections at once, yet our amendment cannot be secured without the grace of God, the prayers of good men, the help of the brethren, and our own sincere repentance and constant care. It is a good thing not to sin at all; it is also good, having sinned, to repent; as it is best to have health always, but it is a good thing to recover from a distemper. To God be glory and dominion for ever and ever Amen.

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/hades.htm
link to Josephus discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades

 

[freelight]

manly doctrines.........

manly doctrines.........

Kinda makes you wonder how much of Josephus work was creatively arranged by later scribes - or how much of the NT, particularly the gospels were under the creative license of scribes ...modifying, interpolating certain presupposed beliefs into the text molding them to their own suits.

Josephus address to the greeks is interesting and shows his belief or the one that he was taught as being the belief of the mind of his kinsman.

However,.....there are still many dimensions of this subject of eternal punishment...as shared already here....which appear to be looked over and unattended for the favor of what Josephus says (as if some kind of authority) and what some passages in the NT appear to allude. Besides already showing the absurdity and injustice of enforcing endless torments......we have the issue of the what the original words that were translated as 'eternal' and 'everlasting' actually allude to. These indications do not necessarily lend to the idea of never-ending but only to an eon, age or indefinite span of time - there is more flexibility than what a literal rendering of the english terminology might imply. Besides this issue of words/translation is the very principle that it implies....which by virtue of reason is most unreasonable for Deity in his divine Character. So...as shared before....one may choose to bypass reason, spiritual logic and sensibility....and embrace this doctrine...but to what avail? To scare one into submission to God before its too late....and becomes the subject of Gods eternal disdain and wrath? Again...it would be most redeeming to recognize and learn the divine Nature and his ministrations before alloting to him actions which are contrary to His nature.

Let us consider the supremacy of Gods Will.....the eternality of His Love. True,....all souls shall reap what they sow....and as they spiritually evolve ....are ever in the eternal care and Providence of our Heavenly Father. God is prefectly Just and eternally merciful. He is a wonderful God.


paul

 

[Polycarp]

Paul, it appears that every time you all find documents that discredit your position, you invent a conspiracy. Really, it does get old. No one discounts Josephus or any other of the theologians I've documented.

Your stance is basically to judge God. You don't like Him if He saves you from eternal punishment. There is so much evidence against the universal reconciliation side, that you'll will have to invent a thousand conspiracies. That is the same tactic the JW's, Adventist , Mormons and the Armstrong's use. The problem is, there is no evidence. While there is volumes of evidence that eternal punishment is the correct teaching. A stable person does not run off on some hunch of a conspiracy unless there is REAL evidence. And there isn't any for you to claim.

Read the scriptures! From Genesis to Revelation there is one story after another, 100's of them, one warning after another that is intended to frighten someone into repentance because of the hardness of ones heart.

The righteous will inherit eternal life, therefore, the wickedly justly inherit eternal death and punishment for rejecting so great a salvation and God.

If you reject God and the Christ as well as the gospel of salvation through Christ from eternal punishment, then I suspect, you won't have Christ in your corner to protect you. Afterall, you spent your life denying Him. I'd weigh move before I spent my life attacking the gospel and inventing conspiracies.

 

[logos_x]

There are several arguments against believing the doctrine of universal reconciliation. For the sake of brevity, I will address only a few of them.


[jesus]Argument 1[/jesus]

If this universal reconciliation doctrine is true, why don't most Christians believe it?

Just because the majority either believes or disbelieves in something, that doesn't necessarily make it right. Take Israel for example. It is clear to us that all throughout the Old Testament, God's intention was always to include the Gentiles in His "greater" purpose. And yet, Israel as a whole rejected the prophets and their message. They could not see the truth that we now see. They limited God's plan to their own dispensation.

The Roman Church embraced such falsehoods as Transubstantiation and rejected truths such as the doctrine of Justification by Faith. It wasn't until Martin Luther that God broke through the traditions of men and the truth became clear to the Church.

The problem with the Church today is that we see ourselves better and far above Israel, when in reality, we are just like her.

Listen to the words of Andrew Jukes:

"But suppose it were otherwise,--suppose it could be shown that the Church, instead of asserting "the forgiveness of sins," had taught the reverse, and had judged the doctrine of the "restitution of all things" as false--what does this prove, if, though yet beyond the Church's light, the doctrine is really taught in the Holy Scriptures? Many things have been hid in Scripture for ages. St. Paul speaks of "the revelation of the mystery, which had been hid from ages and generations;" some part of which at least, though hidden, had been "spoken by the mouth of all God's holy prophets since the world began." There are many such treasures hidden in Scripture, open secrets like those in nature which are daily opening to us.

But when have God's people as a body ever seen or received any truth beyond their own dispensation? Take as an instance Israel of old, whose ways, "ensamples of us," prefigure the Church of this age. Did they ever receive the call of the Gentiles, or see God's purpose outside their own election? A few all through that age spoke of blessings to the world, and were without exception judged for such a testimony:--"Which of the prophets have not your fathers slain?" Was God's purpose to the Gentiles therefore a false doctrine: or, because His people did not receive it, was it not to be found in their own Scriptures?

The doctrine of the "restitution of all things" is to the Church what "the call of the Gentiles" was to Israel. And if the Church, like Israel, can see no truth beyond its own and has judged those who have been witnesses to a purpose of love far wider than that of this age,--which is not to convert the world, as some suppose, but only "to take out of the nations a people for God's name,"--is God's purpose, though declared in Scripture, to be damned as false doctrine simply because the Church is blind to it? Is Israel's path to teach us nothing? Are men's traditions as to God's purpose to be preferred to His own unerring Word?

It is indeed a solemn thing to differ with the Church, or like Paul to find oneself in a "way which they call heresy," simply by "believing," not some but, "all the things which are written in the law and the prophets." But the path is not a new one for the sons of God. All the prophets perished in Jerusalem. And, above all, the Lord of prophets was judged as a Deceiver, by those whom God had called to be His witnesses. The Church's judgment, therefore, cannot decide a point like this, if that judgment be in opposition to the Word of God.

But is it possible that Christians should have been allowed to err on so important a point as the doctrine of future judgment? Would our Lord Himself have used, or permitted others to use, words which, if final restitution be true, might be understood as teaching the very opposite. Transubstantiation is a mistake built on Christ's very words; and the doctrine of endless torments is but another like misunderstanding; which not only directly contradicts many other Scriptures, but practically denies and falsifies the glorious revelation of Himself, which God has given us in the gospel, and in the face of Jesus Christ. This shows us the state of the Church. And though thousands of God's children have held, not this only, but many other errors, the fact, instead of approving their errors, only proves the grace of Him, who spite such errors can yet bless and make His children a blessing"

[jesus]Argument 2[/jesus]

Why did Jesus have to die if all men are going to be saved anyway?

That’s like asking, "What’s the point of having a hospital that has discovered the cure for all diseases?" Just because Calvary will prove itself to be 100% successful does not render Christ’s sacrifice unnecessary!

If a rescue team saved all the passengers on a sinking ship, would that prove their mission to be futile? The unscriptural dogma that only some will be saved (Partialism) undermines the atonement. It renders our Lord’s work as mostly a failure. There is no other name by which men can be saved (Acts 4:12)! This is God’s way. God could have chosen any means He wanted to bring salvation to men. The means God has chosen to bring it about is the shedding of innocent blood. Man cannot save himself. He is estranged from God because of sin. So God had to intervene and send His only Son to die for the sins of the world. This was God’s plan before the foundation of the world. So even if God were going to save only one man, Jesus would still have had to die. So it really doesn’t matter if one man is saved or all of mankind, Jesus Christ fulfilled the purpose of God by dying for the sins of the world. This is the only way to be saved. This is the way God has chosen.


[jesus]Argument 3[/jesus]

If men know they will be saved one day, this will lead to a license to sin. They will have no reason to repent in this life.

This was the same argument that men gave the Apostle Paul as he preached the “gospel of grace.” They argued salvation by grace apart from the law would lead men to continue in sin. It was said that the law was needed to keep men in line. This is the exact reason why Paul wrote in Rom 6:1, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound…?”

The reason men should repent in this life is the fact that they are in a condemned state without Christ. God’s judgmental fire is coming. Yes, there will be rewards (and lack of them) for what we’ve done here on this earth. There are many reasons why men should repent now. But the bottom line is this: men should repent now because God sent His Son to die for their sins. They can have life now! They don’t have to continue being dead in their trespasses. This is the Good News! Men no longer have to be estranged from God. They can have His love, joy, and peace today!


[jesus]Argument 4[/jesus]

Why should we preach if God we save all one day?

I hate to keep giving simple answers but we proclaim His truth simply because God commands us to! We are His priests and one of the functions of a priest is to go to men on behalf of God. We are to perform our priestly duties by going to men with the good news of Jesus Christ. When they get saved is not our business. Some will sow: some will reap. But it is God who will give the increase in His own time.

God has called us to a glorious calling: to proclaim His liberty to the captives! He has chosen the Church (the elect, firstborn sons, etc.) to be the vehicle in which to tell the whole world about the love of God in Christ.

If universal reconciliation is true (and it is), how terrible for me if I were to sit at home with the attitude that "I'm not gonna do anything because every person will be saved eventually anyway." When I stand before my Lord face to face, not only will I be ashamed of my attitude, but I will be so disappointed that I missed out on opportunity after opportunity to be a partaker in the high calling of God. What joy it is to see a soul saved, to see one receive the truth, to see one set free from sin, to see a little one find his or her Father; And what joy for me to know that God used litle ol' me to participate in His glorious plan of restoration!

This is our calling! This is our joy! This is our privledge!


[jesus]Argument 5[/jesus]

You’re saying that God will give men a second chance after they die.

Isn’t our God the God of second chances? How many chances did He give you and me? How many times did we reject Him before we responded to His call of grace? Heb 9:27 says, “It is appointed for men once to die, then the judgment.” Men will die physically and then there is a judgment. But even Christians are not exempt. 1 Cor 3 speaks of a judgment of believers. We will all die physically and stand before God in judgment. But nowhere in this verse does it say that salvation cannot come after judgment. In fact, the whole purpose of judgment is rehabilitative in nature, not penal. If you doubt this, read Matt 25:46. The word used for punishment is the Greek word “kolasis” which means “to prune.” It is remedial in nature. The way the verse should read is,[jesus] “…and these shall go away into age-abiding correction.” [/jesus] And as we’ve already seen, nowhere in the Scriptures can you find a word meaning “eternal” linked with punishment.


[jesus]Argument 6[/jesus]

But doesn’t the Bible say that the ungodly will not inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God (Eph 5:5)?

This is one of the tough passages that seem to contradict the doctrine of universal salvation. However, I believe 1 Cor 15:24-28 answers this dilemma.
Most Christians do not understand that one day the Kingdom of Christ will come to an end. Paul talks of a day when the reign of Christ will end, when Christ will step off His throne and subject Himself to the Father so that God may be all in all. This “Kingdom” age will be the time when God will continue to work out His purpose in the earth. I believe it is during this reign of Christ where the ungodly men will be receiving their judgment in the Lake of Fire. Once this judgment is complete, death will finally be destroyed, men will be restored back to their creator, and God will be all in all.

It is absolutely true that no ungodly person shall inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. The truth is that the second death will destroy every motive, every imagination, and every deed that is in opposition to God. When this final death accomplishes its purpose, every soul will be purged and be made ready to receive the Lord Jesus Christ. Every man, woman, and child must go through this "death to the flesh." The Christian goes through this death now. The wicked go through a more harsh death in the ages to come. However, the result is the same. All wickedness will be destroyed! All of us must be purged and be made ready to inherit the Kingdom of God.


[jesus]Argument 7[/jesus]

What about Adolf Hitler? Will God save Him too?

I’ve included this argument because it always comes up. This argument really gets to the heart of the problem. We think that “we” are so much better than others. We would never commit murder or rape. We would never beat our wives or lie or steal. So we look at someone like Adolph Hitler and put him in a worse category than ourselves. It seems to me Rom 3:23 indicts us all—“For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”

This argument really comes down to the “spirit” of Jonah. Why did Jonah get angry when all of Nineveh repented? Simply this: he was prideful. He thought that he was better than those wicked Ninevites. And so he got angry when God spared their lives.

Isn’t this the same thing we see today?

Oh sure, we talk about how much we love those “terrible sinners.” But when they get saved, we feel betrayed by God. That “terrible sinner” who was far worse than we ever were is now going to share heaven with us. It is the same spirit that Jesus was talking about when he told the parable of the laborers who each got hired at different times of the day. But in the end, they all got paid the same wage. Those who got hired early in the morning got angry with the master because they felt they deserved more.

This is much of the same spirit we see in the Church today. The doctrine of eternal torment feeds the pride of man. It makes us cold and hard. We try to mask it behind our “words of love,” but the true spirit (the flesh) of Jonah is there. It is not until we see ourselves as Paul did, wretched and the chief of all sinners, that the doctrine of universal reconciliation can become a glorious truth in our lives. And until the “power of sin” is broken in our own lives, we will continue to embrace those things that please the flesh—things that only bring death and not life.


[jesus]In Conclusion[/jesus]

We really think too highly of ourselves. We’ve got God all figured out. We have our nice, neat, and tidy theology all wrapped up and our impressive doctorate degrees hanging on our walls. But the truths of God are far greater than any of our earthly wisdom. We say we are taught of the Holy Spirit, but are we? The early Church needed no Bible colleges. They needed no degrees. They needed no special positions or offices. All they had was the Holy Spirit to teach them. I’m afraid we’ve been taught too much by the traditions of men and have relied very little on the Holy Spirit. May God grant us a spirit of humility to see who we are in the light of His unsearchable riches.

 

[Polycarp]

Yeah, us cold harded so and so's wouldn't want to save anyone from everlasting punishment. Though, we teach and preach exactly the same doctrine as the Christ and the Apostles. We only preach Christ as salvation from everlasting punishment because were so vain and pompous asses.. Yeah, that's it. Back you go to demonizing again. Powerful arguments that stuff.

And boy, if we would just stop being so literate! All that study has really become a problem.

 

[freelight]

logix

logix

Originally posted by Polycarp

Yeah, us cold harded so and so's wouldn't want to save anyone from everlasting punishment. Though, we teach and preach exactly the same doctrine as the Christ and the Apostles. We only preach Christ as salvation from everlasting punishment because were so vain and pompous asses.. Yeah, that's it. Back you go to demonizing again. Powerful arguments that stuff.

And boy, if we would just stop being so literate! All that study has really become a problem.

From the get-go the idea that souls need to be saved in this life by 'accepting Jesus as their own personal savior'(propaganda) from an eternal and endless hell is a novel concept born of mere doctrinal belief and novelties of human imagination.

Just what Jesus and the apostles taught is open to review.

Spiritual truth, sense and logics have greater value and priority over literal-based translation/interpretations which are contrary to spiritual truth, sense and logic. The trouble with some is they assign to a few phrases a strict literal interpretation without taking their interpretation into the light of reason, divine intelligence and common sense logics relative to the character of divine Love.

It may surprise you that many will be found in the Kingdom and in even higher spiritual realms in the Spirit-world....who by their lives of goodness and ethical living of the Law of Love....have afforded themselves a 'salvation' and greater joy of Life in the worlds to come.....who may not have clung to or literally believed what today passes off as common 'evengelical what you gotta do to be saved' doctrines.

Every soul is carried by the same grace and governed by the same laws of soul-progress according to the rules of spiritual evolution. At best....if a christian wants to live the Light of God...he can be the light of the world....by manifesting the love and justice of God.....thru merciful ministry. The laws of compensation(sowing and reaping) are universal to all souls...and all shall be rewarded and/or judged by their works.

There is much more than just a 'accept Jesus died for your sins or go to hell forever' salvation promo. Goodness is its own reward....and evil is its own punishment. We reap what we sow....in this life and in the life to come. Living, teaching these truths in the spirit of Christs love and exampleship is the way of true and beneficial living.....and such manners are recorded and enshrined within the souls archive.

Having beliefs are fine......but posing a belief as a 'truth' is not so advantageous when we review the whole story of what is the Way of God...as realized from day to day in our ever-day interactions with others and the tasks at hand in our mundane living.

Today is a beautiful day filled with Gods presence and opportunities of every dimension. Gods Love will never leave me in this life or in the life to come. As long as the soul is conscious and able to make choices in the light of consciousness...it may always afford itself the ability to grow, progress upwards, evolve and ascend higher to the realms of being in accord with divine Will. Salvation is offered in every moment as long as the soul may look Godward and is able to call on the Lords Name.

---------------------


I have proposed earlier considerations on the theme of eternal punishment or hell without hope of redemption. One factor was the speculation that a soul may reach a 'point of no return' and somehow by some stretch or clouding of the imagination deserve, merit or make for itself an eternal abode in hell. Such pros and cons are speculation and subjective tendencies to believe one way or the other will be influenced by ones perception of the soul and of Gods divine Providence. So.....such conclusions will be more or less relative.....and not necessarily absolute as only Gods knowledge and understanding of these situations is absolute and divinely just.

It is a much more sound doctrine considering the souls worth, the laws of compensation, the law of progress, soul evolution, the availability of divine Love and the notion of the souls immortality...that as long as a soul is conscious and within the providence of eternal mercy.....that soul will eventually thru its suffering and torment of self-imposed sin and depravity...afford itself the light of God for its own betterment and happiness....if even just ascend one step towards the Light. As long as the divine semblence and spark of God is within a soul....even as a faint glowing ember......such may be fanned into flame by the desire for salvation/repentance...where the angels of God can carry it to a higher place....prospering it by the undergirding power of divine Will.....which Will it is impossible at last to ever finally thwart. It is thru this one aspect of understanding of divine Love which inspires souls to believe in a doctrine of universal Reconciliation.....which is truly sound, logical and in perfect harmony within the Providence of Gods eternal Wisdom.

As long as I know that I have worth, value and am a child of God.....I know that my Father will never leave, abandon or forsake me......EVER.


paul

 

[Polycarp]

Paul, you can "review" any doctrine you want. You can come to any conclusion you want. By no means does it mean, because you believe it, that it is true. Just remember, freedom comes with a price. And be prepared to pay the price if you are wrong. Don't decieve yourself or let any other man deceive you. The scripture is explicitly clear.

Gal.5:19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, SEDITIONS, HERESIES , ....and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I HAVE TOLD YOU IN THE PAST, that they which do such things SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. "

 

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Polycarp

Yeah, us cold harded so and so's wouldn't want to save anyone from everlasting punishment.

Do you want to?
Then why won't you believe in it?

Though, we teach and preach exactly the same doctrine as the Christ and the Apostles.

Do you?

We only preach Christ as salvation from everlasting punishment because were so vain and pompous asses.. Yeah, that's it.

You are a Partialist.
You preach Christ as salvation of a few from everlasting punishment.
Universalists preach Christ is the salvation of the whole world, and all men, from evertasting punishment.

Back you go to demonizing again. Powerful arguments that stuff.

I can't help it if eternal conscious torment is a doctrine of devils. I can only show that it is what it is.

And boy, if we would just stop being so literate! All that study has really become a problem.

Same back at ya!

 

[logos_x]

God's Perfect Judgement

 

[Nineveh]

logos,
What is judgement if there are no teeth in the verdict?

 

[Polycarp]

Originally posted by logos_x



I can't help it if eternal conscious torment is a doctrine of devils. I can only show that it is what it is.

Now, it is fitting to quote 2Thess.2 regarding the "falling away" that causes one to speak with so boldly as to call the doctrines of Christ "Satanic" , already the work of iniquity that "opposeth God" and "exalts himself above God" is at work.

Logos, you are very near, the unpardonable sin, for already you blaspheme Christ, His Gospel and the truths given by the mouth of the Holy Spirit.

If you don't believe as I do, that is one thing, but to call the truths, a "doctrine of demons" leaves you hopeless. Next you will declare yourself "infallible" . Or do you already believe you ARE? I think so, for no one of sound mind calls such things, "a doctrine of demons" unless he believes he is infallible.

 

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Polycarp

Now, it is fitting to quote 2Thess.2 regarding the "falling away" that causes one to speak with so boldly as to call the doctrines of Christ "Satanic" , already the work of iniquity that "opposeth God" and "exalts himself above God" is at work.

Logos, you are very near, the unpardonable sin, for already you blaspheme Christ, His Gospel and the truths given by the mouth of the Holy Spirit.

If you don't believe as I do, that is one thing, but to call the truths, a "doctrine of demons" leaves you hopeless. Next you will declare yourself "infallible" . Or do you already believe you ARE? I think so, for no one of sound mind calls such things, "a doctrine of demons" unless he believes he is infallible.

This rhetoric is really getting old.
It isn't the teaching of Christ..plain and simple.

Now.you say..."you are very near, the unpardonable sin, for already you blaspheme Christ, His Gospel and the truths given by the mouth of the Holy Spirit" ...But I do no such thing...I refute the notion that eternal conscious torment was the teaching of Christ or the Holy Spirit.

Then you say," If you don't believe as I do, that is one thing, but to call the truths, a "doctrine of demons" leaves you hopeless. Next you will declare yourself "infallible" . Or do you already believe you ARE? I think so, for no one of sound mind calls such things, "a doctrine of demons" unless he believes he is infallible." ..to which I reply...How is this different than what you do? Are you declaring yourself infallible in believing as you do in eternal conscious torment?

All of these arguments are nothing but a rediculous notion that eternal concious torment was actually the intent of the Father, the teachings of Christ, and the leading of the Holy Spirit..
I have demonstrated otherwise...that universal reconciliation was the intention of the Father before the foundation of the world, will be fully realized through the cross of Christ and His resurrection, and is the leading of the Holy Spirit.
So..unless YOU think you are infallible,,,and that your veiw is the only viable scriptural view without reasonable doubt...I will declare to the world that Christ was completely victorious over sin, death, hell, and the grave..and He WILL draw ALL MEN to Himself...because THIS is the teaching of the scriptures.

Resting in Him
Logos

 

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Nineveh

logos,
What is judgement if there are no teeth in the verdict?

Nin,

Are you saying that the punishment MUST last forever in Hell before it has any teeth?
What kind of logic is this?

Punishment has no teeth unless it lasts forever folks...anything else is for wimps anyway!

NO!

The people in Hell will not be heroic figures defying God forever and ever without ever changing...or able to resist insanity from the flames even though they will never turn to God. Sorry...God has better things in store than that!

 

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by logos_x

Are you saying that the punishment MUST last forever in Hell before it has any teeth?

I don't see God giving any "outs" from the Lake of Fire, that's what I'm saying.

What kind of logic is this?

Polycarp has made (repeated) strong arguments. I can't help you are choosing to ignore them.

Punishment has no teeth unless it lasts forever folks...anything else is for wimps anyway!

Last I saw, the keys to hell weren't given into your possession. Offering false hope to people who will feel there will be yet one more chance to repent is dastardly, in my opinion.

Especially about a place decribed as "outside" of God's kingdom. That means outside of hope, love and redemption.

NO!

Scream it to the heavens. Maybe God will change His mind.

Christ thought it a big enough deal to die to keep us out of the place, I'll take His Word for it.

The people in Hell will not be heroic figures defying God forever and ever without ever changing...or able to resist insanity from the flames even though they will never turn to God. Sorry...God has better things in store than that!

Big words from a man wou can't even travel to hell let alone have the power to pull people out of it. Who do you think you are? The pope?

Christ is the only Way you have to save others from that place. But why should they listen to you? After all it could maybe might only be temporary.

 

[Polycarp]

What's weird, is that everytime Logos reads the words, "everlasting punishment" they think it, "salvation" . And everytime Logos and her fellows reads the words, "perish" they think "NOT perish" or "salvation" . And when they read the words, 'the worm dieth not" they think, the worm dieth.

When Logos reads the words, eternal it means something else besides eternal. While at the same time "eternal" is used scores of time to mean the endless worship of God as it is to mean the endless punishment of sinners.

Even when the word is so explicit, the heretic reads it just the opposite and then refers to the explicit meaning as some "Satanic" thing. It is the tool used over and over by the cults.

 

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Nineveh

I don't see God giving any "outs" from the Lake of Fire, that's what I'm saying.
Polycarp has made (repeated) strong arguments. I can't help you are choosing to ignore them.
Last I saw, the keys to hell weren't given into your possession. Offering false hope to people who will feel there will be yet one more chance to repent is dastardly, in my opinion.Especially about a place decribed as "outside" of God's kingdom. That means outside of hope, love and redemption.
Scream it to the heavens. Maybe God will change His mind.
Christ thought it a big enough deal to die to keep us out of the place, I'll take His Word for it.
Big words from a man wou can't even travel to hell let alone have the power to pull people out of it. Who do you think you are? The pope?
Christ is the only Way you have to save others from that place. But why should they listen to you? After all it could maybe might only be temporary.

Nin...maybe if you were actually paying attention to my arguments you could make a point.
Christ IS the way out of such a place...that IS what I've said all along! He IS successful...completely.
There is no could maybe might about Christ's complete victory over sin Hell and death Nin.
Punishment means something...it is NOT a fruitless enterprise in God's and Christ's economy. It actually accomplishes something! Not punshment just for it's own sake without any remedy, rather the remedy actually takes hold and Christ taking everything given to Him by God...which last I checked was everything...and giving it all back into God's hands without losing one thing.

In the end God is all in all, death is inoperative, every tear wiped away and no more pain or tears...you can't have it both ways Nin...EVERY tear, NO more pain, death is DEAD, and NOTHING outside because GOD is ALL in ALL.

That is Bible....and the punishment has to fit with that ending...It has to fit with Jesus Christ's victory and complete redemption that He came to accomplish.

 

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Polycarp

What's weird, is that everytime Logos reads the words, "everlasting punishment" they think it, "salvation" . And everytime Logos and her fellows reads the words, "perish" they think "NOT perish" or "salvation" . And when they read the words, 'the worm dieth not" they think, the worm dieth.

When Logos reads the words, eternal it means something else besides eternal. While at the same time "eternal" is used scores of time to mean the endless worship of God as it is to mean the endless punishment of sinners.

Even when the word is so explicit, the heretic reads it just the opposite and then refers to the explicit meaning as some "Satanic" thing. It is the tool used over and over by the cults.

Polycarp,

What is really weird is to have you using this rhetorical slam against me without any motive other to to make my view sound like it is an attack agaist the Word of the Living God and Christianity, Jesus Himself, and even blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
This is really pathetic!

Polycarp...do you even know where the doctrine of eternal torment originated? Do you realize it's pagan origins...that it was the heathen that dreamed it all up, or were influenced to believe in it?

the folowing is a link to an online book that you would do well to at least glance at before you make so hasty and brash accusations:

The ORIGIN AND HISTORY of the doctrine of eternal torment

 

[freelight]

Love prevails.........

Love prevails.........

What is interesting is how one can choose to focus on a concept of eternal and unending punishment......over the magnitude and majesty of divine Love....which is the eternal nature of Deity.

It may serve one well to meditate and receive a revelation of divine Love - this is primary....as a first principle of salvation is a knowledge of God(divine nature). To know God(Love) is eternal Life.

If one chooses to bypass, neglect and forget God......and choose to believe a doctrine that is contrary to his divine dispensation, will and character.... this does not speak very well of their knowledge of God and is evidence that they have not this aspect of divine knowledge within them.

Most of us do believe the soul is immortal(at least in the sense that there is continued life/consciousness after death for an indefinite amount of time). I use the word 'immortal' only in that general sense. Josephus mentioning this only affirms an age-old belief man has had from early times....made more popular among the greeks and other schools. Much greek and pagan belief was adopted and blended into christian(catholic) theology as it developed over time.

However,....holding this belief along with a belief in eternal or unending punishment is illogical. What earthly father would place a sentence of doom/condemnation of eternal torment/punishment/damnation upon his children? How much more grievous to assume that God would inflict such torments upon his children...forever and ever and ever. In the comparisons of Jesus teaching....he said "if a child went to his father and asked for some bread, would he give him a stone? or if he asked him for a fish, would he give him a serpent? - if you who are evil...know how to give what is good to your children .....how much more will your Heavenly Father give good gifts(or the Holy Spirit) to those who ask him?" In this comparison of Gods Love....we see how much more glorious and great is the Fathers love than any earthly father. By the same token.....what earthly father would wish eternal punishment upon his children? No man in his right mind would wish let alone enforce such a thing for all eternity upon his offspring. How sad that some have this picture of God.


Man reaps what he sows - this is a universal law here and in the hereafter. Let us not forget that,......divine Law is not mocked.
All are judged according to their works...........and the justice and mercy of God is eternally satisfied via the laws at work in the soul of man and in the greater realm of Gods great Universe.

The love of God is redemptive in nature........it is always giving, seeking to save, endeavoring to do good always. If Love is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent......then it is All-powerful....all consuming....all pervasive.

To hold to eternal punishment is to obscure and bypass the eternality of divine Love and defame Gods character. To know God is to know Love.....for God is Love. All doctrinal, traditional or scriptural interpretations that are inconsistent with divine nature are worthless. Souls punish themselves by trangressing against divine laws.......until they can be restored in the light thru repentance as Love ultimately triumphs.

What is of greatest worth is to know God as Love...and thru his love....souls can be healed, renewed, empowered, restored, perfected.....inspired thru-out eternity....in eternal Life. This is the God I know and love....because His Spirit has born witness with my spirit that such is true. This is real for me....because of revelation.........the witness within.

This is the good news that saves souls....and restores all back into the Fathers fold.


paul