John of Patmos

[Dan Emanuel]

...we can question how it got there

without questioning its authority

Correct. It's authority come's from the Church, who pronounced it Scripture.

A very long time ago, I might add.

I know the thread isn't about the authority of Revelation. I'm offering for anybody who was raised like me, to see the Bible through the lens of the Church, rather than the other way around.

When our Lord ascended, He left what behind? I was raised to answer, "The Bible," but the correct answer is, "The Church" (Matthew 16:18 KJV). Thats actually what the Bible say's.


DJ

1.0
​

 

[patrick jane]

Correct. It's authority come's from the Church, who pronounced it Scripture.

A very long time ago, I might add.

I know the thread isn't about the authority of Revelation. I'm offering for anybody who was raised like me, to see the Bible through the lens of the Church, rather than the other way around.

When our Lord ascended, He left what behind? I was raised to answer, "The Bible," but the correct answer is, "The Church" (Matthew 16:18 KJV). Thats actually what the Bible say's.


DJ

1.0
​

this thread is not limited. i don't make rules for threads as i can always close them, but i wouldn't think any less of Revelation if a 'different' John wrote it.

The Acts 1:4 KJV - The Acts 1:5 KJV - The Acts 1:8 KJV - Acts 1:9 KJV -

 

[chrysostom]

I have made my argument for

the three johns

in that thread

 

[Dan Emanuel]

this thread is not limited. i don't make rules for threads as i can always close them, but i wouldn't think any less of Revelation if a 'different' John wrote it.

The Acts 1:4 KJV - The Acts 1:5 KJV - The Acts 1:8 KJV - Acts 1:9 KJV -

I would. In 1 sense anyway, not that I would see Revelation as any less authoritative; any less Gods Word; but they'res something special about knowing your reading the verbatim word's of an Apostle, from his own mind.

Thats just neat.


DJ

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[glorydaz]

I would. In 1 sense anyway, not that I would see Revelation as any less authoritative; any less Gods Word; but they'res something special about knowing your reading the verbatim word's of an Apostle, from his own mind.

Thats just neat.


DJ

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​

I think it was John the Apostle and here's one reason why...consistency being the WORD of God.

Revelation 1:1-2
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.​

John the record bearer of all things he saw....consistency.

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.​

 

[Dan Emanuel]

I think it was John the Apostle...

Spoiler

...and here's one reason why...consistency being the WORD of God.

Revelation 1:1-2
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.​

John the record bearer of all things he saw....consistency.

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.​

I do too. Good point's and great post. :thumb:


DJ

1.0
​

 

[patrick jane]

I think it was John the Apostle and here's one reason why...consistency being the WORD of God.

Revelation 1:1-2
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.​

John the record bearer of all things he saw....consistency.

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.​

yes i believe it is John the Apostle. i guess i was having a brain cramp, i think i already knew this and it was late (or i was tired ) and Patmos crossed my mind. my study Bible says it was John the Beloved.

John also wrote his gospel considerably later than M, M, L -

 

[aikido7]

yes i believe it is John the Apostle.

We all have the right to our own beliefs. In this case, your belief is not rooted in history.

John of Patmos wrote from an island in the Aegean Sea. John of the gospels wrote his account from somewhere in Palestine--probably in Antioch.

John of Patmos wrote in the 60s, right before the Roman/Jewish war and the horrific slaughter of Christians by Nero of Rome ("the beast of Babylon").

John wrote his gospel after the Jews were conquered after the war, sometime around the second century.

I am merely passing along the history and traditions of Christianity that are fairly well known now. It is not my intention to "make you wrong." I am giving you some information only. And, based on that information, you should make your own best choice.

 

[patrick jane]

We all have the right to our own beliefs. In this case, your belief is not rooted in history.

John of Patmos wrote from an island in the Aegean Sea. John of the gospels wrote his account from somewhere in Palestine--probably in Antioch.

John of Patmos wrote in the 60s, right before the Roman/Jewish war and the horrific slaughter of Christians by Nero of Rome ("the beast of Babylon").

John wrote his gospel after the Jews were conquered after the war, sometime around the second century.

I am merely passing along the history and traditions of Christianity that are fairly well known now. It is not my intention to "make you wrong." I am giving you some information only. And, based on that information, you should make your own best choice.

wrong.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear patrickj,

I have also always believed it was the disciple John who was of Patmos because he was sent there or banished there, or whatever. It would have taken someone VERY CLOSE to Jesus for him to write the book of Revelation. No one knows, but the book of Revelation is one of the most important books in the Bible. In the future, everyone shall know, because God will reveal it/tell us who the author was/is. Anyway, I do hope you find your answer, if this doesn't sound right to you!!

Much Love, In Christ,

Michael
:angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :cloud9: :guitar: :singer:
​

 

[lukecash12]

who was John of Patmos ? do some believe he was the Apostle John The Beloved ? do we know that he was not for sure ? or do we know that it was him ? anyone ? Beuhler ?

For starters, a round criticism of seven different large churches, even stating to some that the Lord would put out their lamp/church, has to have come from someone with considerable authority.

Especially notable is the criticism towards a church like Ephesus, think of churches that over emphasize orthodoxy to their detriment and how reluctant they would be in taking criticism for doing just that. Such criticism carries a lot of weight when it's coming from the same Apostle who was until recently the leader of your church (John the beloved taught in Ephesus). It can be remarked that an undue emphasis on orthodoxy is actually capable of doing harm to orthopraxy/conduct, but that's a discussion for another time.

Much of the habitual references to celestial bodies and grand overarching concepts like "light and dark" can be found within the book, and such images are a trademark, so to speak, of the Apostle John. This can be observed in his gospel and general epistles.

His Greek vocabulary in general is basically consistent from book to book, and many students and experts of texts like the Textus Receptus (the generally used Greek text) have remarked that John, Luke, and Paul have the most exceptional literary skills of any NT authors. All three of them are much more grammatically explicit, using variants of words and compound words to better express themselves. John's Greek in particular is beautiful, and I more often than not am very stirred emotionally as I read it.

So, to sum it up, there are linguistic reasons as well as questions of authority that led the early church to attribute this book to John the beloved. These were the same people involved in canonizing our Bibles, and earlier church fathers like Papias in particular diligently investigated the authorship of the NT.

 

[IMJerusha]

For starters, a round criticism of seven different large churches, even stating to some that the Lord would put out their lamp/church, has to have come from someone with considerable authority.

Yes, considerable authority; God, through Yeshua. :chuckle: It could have been penned by the Apostle John or it could have been John the Presbyter. It depends on whether one holds with second century opinion or third century opinion.

Welcome to TOL, btw!

 

[patrick jane]

For starters, a round criticism of seven different large churches, even stating to some that the Lord would put out their lamp/church, has to have come from someone with considerable authority.

Especially notable is the criticism towards a church like Ephesus, think of churches that over emphasize orthodoxy to their detriment and how reluctant they would be in taking criticism for doing just that. Such criticism carries a lot of weight when it's coming from the same Apostle who was until recently the leader of your church (John the beloved taught in Ephesus). It can be remarked that an undue emphasis on orthodoxy is actually capable of doing harm to orthopraxy/conduct, but that's a discussion for another time.

Much of the habitual references to celestial bodies and grand overarching concepts like "light and dark" can be found within the book, and such images are a trademark, so to speak, of the Apostle John. This can be observed in his gospel and general epistles.

His Greek vocabulary in general is basically consistent from book to book, and many students and experts of texts like the Textus Receptus (the generally used Greek text) have remarked that John, Luke, and Paul have the most exceptional literary skills of any NT authors. All three of them are much more grammatically explicit, using variants of words and compound words to better express themselves. John's Greek in particular is beautiful, and I more often than not am very stirred emotionally as I read it.

So, to sum it up, there are linguistic reasons as well as questions of authority that led the early church to attribute this book to John the beloved. These were the same people involved in canonizing our Bibles, and earlier church fathers like Papias in particular diligently investigated the authorship of the NT.

thank you, i tend to agree as i am an expert myself -

 

[dialm]

The Roman Catholic version is an example of an inflationary spiral. They flood the market with green backs to impoverish the Protestants whom they despise. Martin Luther did not trust the the book in question on theological grounds. The book is not without merit. But it is inferior to the Gospel of John which is the high mark of the entire bible. Probably the Apostle was sick when he wrote that last book.

 

[aikido7]

wrong.

Not wrong. A different interpretation that relies on facts, not faith.

And you certainly have a right to yours. I am not so arrogant that I can say I completely right about historical context that appeared 2,000 years ago in the ancient past.

 

[lukecash12]

The Roman Catholic version is an example of an inflationary spiral. They flood the market with green backs to impoverish the Protestants whom they despise. Martin Luther did not trust the the book in question on theological grounds. The book is not without merit. But it is inferior to the Gospel of John which is the high mark of the entire bible. Probably the Apostle was sick when he wrote that last book.

I can scarcely imagine that such sublime material is "inferior", or that John "was sick":

Revelation 4

After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. 3 And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God, 6 and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal.

And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: 7 the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight. 8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say,
“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”

9 And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 “Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”


Revelation 20


11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Revelation 22

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

If these sections of scripture aren't capable of inspiring sobs of spiritual pleasure, I am genuinely concerned and would invite anyone to examine themselves in that case.

 

[patrick jane]

I can scarcely imagine that such sublime material is "inferior", or that John "was sick":

Revelation 4

After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. 3 And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God, 6 and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal.

And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: 7 the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight. 8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say,
“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”

9 And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 “Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”


Revelation 20


11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Revelation 22

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

If these sections of scripture aren't capable of inspiring sobs of spiritual pleasure, I am genuinely concerned and would invite anyone to examine themselves in that case.

Good scriptures/Good post - i can't read them enough