HisServant
New member
Yup and they can make all the choices they want, but they are unable to make a choice they have never been given.
Kind of like I am unable to make the choice to be the King of England.
John Calvin said this....
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
Yup and they can make all the choices they want, but they are unable to make a choice they have never been given.
Kind of like I am unable to make the choice to be the King of England.
HisServant
New member
I edited my post above to explain myself further.
I'm waiting for your explanation of that verse?
How about your interpretation of that verse? You seem to be avoiding it?
It doesn't include your interpretation of the verse I gave you?
Looks like he left, rather than explain that verse of Scripture. Because, he can't.
No one can look at that verse and not see "Free-will choice." That's why
he ran away and avoided it.
he ran away and avoided it.
HisServant
New member
I absolutely did.... sorry you cannot see that.
Yep. You absolutely ran away because, you can't explain that verse.
HisServant
New member
No... I absolutely explained it.
Sorry you didn't understand my explanation... when you get mature in Christ, hopefully you will.
Shasta
Well-known member
So I suppose in a modern scenaro a demon comes to God and asks permission to be a spirit of sexual perversion to go down and inspire a father to rape his innocent pre-pubescent daughter. The Lord gives His permission and the demon is sent out with the commission of child abuse which it carries out for many years. When the abused person finally escapes they, damaged and deformed by the experience asks their Reformed Pastor (who is a strict Calvinist) the question they always ask, "Why did this happen?" True to his doctrine the Pastor replies "God caused it to happen....for your good."
Do you think people do not ask this? I have heard this many times. What are they to think about a God who has caused this to happen? We have to be careful not to be be dogmatic about these cases. Many times in scripture people were subjected to evil because they were simply born into an evil culture, or under the influence of an abusive authority. Because "the kingdoms of this world" are not yet "the kingdoms of this world and of His Christ" evil still is allowed spheres of influence. The Father is working in the present evil world, however, and is not ready yet to call a halt to it.
One assumption that is often made is that demons always have to ask permission to do things. We have drawn this inference on the basis of only a few scriptures. One is Job. The Devil had to ask permission to assault him...but that was because Job was protected by a special "hedge" of protection which had to be removed before he could be attacked.
In another scripture, a demon was given permission to deceive the prophets that were advising Ahab in order to bring the king to judgment (1 Kings 22:21-23 ). Had the prophet's motives not been to please the king and gain favor they might have recognized the spirit of deception but their own crooked motives made them vulnerable to the spirit's influence.
Sometimes demons gain ascendancy in a person's life not because God commissioned them to prevail but because the person willfully indulges in a lifestyle that puts them into contact with the spirit world (Matthew 12:43-45)
From this we need not infer that every time a demon tempts someone (especially a non-believer who is under their power anyway) they must get special permission to do so. It does not make sense that God is in such close contact with the Enemy that He micromanages Satan's kingdom for him. If He did that the Kingdom of Darkness might as well be called God's Kingdom as Satan's
Do you think people do not ask this? I have heard this many times. What are they to think about a God who has caused this to happen? We have to be careful not to be be dogmatic about these cases. Many times in scripture people were subjected to evil because they were simply born into an evil culture, or under the influence of an abusive authority. Because "the kingdoms of this world" are not yet "the kingdoms of this world and of His Christ" evil still is allowed spheres of influence. The Father is working in the present evil world, however, and is not ready yet to call a halt to it.
One assumption that is often made is that demons always have to ask permission to do things. We have drawn this inference on the basis of only a few scriptures. One is Job. The Devil had to ask permission to assault him...but that was because Job was protected by a special "hedge" of protection which had to be removed before he could be attacked.
In another scripture, a demon was given permission to deceive the prophets that were advising Ahab in order to bring the king to judgment (1 Kings 22:21-23 ). Had the prophet's motives not been to please the king and gain favor they might have recognized the spirit of deception but their own crooked motives made them vulnerable to the spirit's influence.
Sometimes demons gain ascendancy in a person's life not because God commissioned them to prevail but because the person willfully indulges in a lifestyle that puts them into contact with the spirit world (Matthew 12:43-45)
From this we need not infer that every time a demon tempts someone (especially a non-believer who is under their power anyway) they must get special permission to do so. It does not make sense that God is in such close contact with the Enemy that He micromanages Satan's kingdom for him. If He did that the Kingdom of Darkness might as well be called God's Kingdom as Satan's
You didn't give your interpretation of that verse. You only went on
about "New-age" concepts. Your fellow posters can see that you didn't
give an interpretation of that verse. You're not fooling anybody but
yourself.
Hyper-Calvinists believe that, God creates ALL sin. In other words, It's His
will that we sin. Sound nutty? It is.
will that we sin. Sound nutty? It is.
Brother Ducky
New member
Notice how Clete referenced what Calvin said. Could you please do the same? Googling "we are all just a bunch of dumb mindless robots" does not bring up anything helpful.
Shasta
Well-known member
Paul's remarks about the potter and the clay in Romans 9 is an allusion to Jeremiah 18:1-4 The potter wanting to make something nice out of the lump of clay began to work with it. Soon however his fingers encountered some resistance in the clay. Since he could not work it out he pulled the hard part out and began reforming it. Not having as much of it to work with the potter decided to make it into something else. The design he had in mind originally was something noble and elegant. Because of the clay's resistance he fashioned it instead into something ignoble - like a bed pan
Many people read the example and get their own ideas about it. A lot of times they do not read what God's interpretation of it was. Jeremiah explains it clearly. The Potter has power over the clay but what the potter decides to make of the clay into depends on whether the clay is resistant or cooperative.
7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it (Jeremiah 18:7-8)
In this case, God has spoken judgement. His intention is to make this a vessel of wrath. Notice that he has warned them. However, when the "clay" which was at first "resistant" changes becoming more pliable God CHANGES the judgement and alters their destiny.
On the other hand, God gives an example of "clay" which is at first soft and pliable. He has envisioned a great purpose for them but then they cease being soft and become resistant.
9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. (Jeremiah 18:9-10)
They started out walking with God. They even had prophetic promises. Then when they rebelled their destiny is changed and the "pot" becomes fit only for ignoble uses. The power of the potter over the clay consists in His right to change people's destiny which he does in accordance with their response to Him.
Far from the Potter's House being a archetypical picture of predestination this metaphor allows for the role of human choice IN divine destiny
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 Jn.1:5).
GuySmiley
Well-known member
What a silly question, coming from you.
It is true so far as Christians are concerned....that will try the faith of many
yeah, i saw that too - i can't agree with the wording. it means everything. word choices; context -