HisServant
New member
What is the 'appropriate punishment' for the robber?
What is the appropriate punishment for your sins?
John Calvin said this....
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
What is the 'appropriate punishment' for the robber?
What is the appropriate punishment for your sins?
Dialogos
Well-known member
I added what?
That God purposed for Babylon to come to Jerusalem in order to destroy the city?
Are you serious Clete?
What, precisely, do you think brought Babylon to the gates of Jerusalem?
Do you think God was sending Nebuchadnezzar an invitation to a BBQ?
(Jeremiah 25:8-10 ESV) "Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts: Because you have not obeyed my words, behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the LORD, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp.
If God didn't purpose to use Babylon as His instrument of righteous judgment against Israel then why does God say that HE will bring them against this land and its inhabitants? (verse 9)
Why does the text say that the Lord is the one banishing them from the voice of mirth? (verse 10)
Why does God say that HE will devote them to destruction?
:think:
Clete said:
:wave2:
Thanks for demonstrating once again that you will pick any other means of attack on Calvinism than a serious discussion regarding the scriptures. That clearly demonstrates that your objections to Calvinism come from your ideological stances, not from God's word.
Once you are forced to wrestle with the clear meaning of God's word, you run for the hills, just like you did when I posted this on Romans 9.
Do you remember your reply?
This was it.
Followed by a mind numbingly daft commentary on a cartoon.
:doh:
You keep engaging in asinine sloganeering like "Calvinism is a mental disorder" or the most recent, "their brains don't work."
Why don't you prove to us that your brain works and answer my simple questions?
Why don't you demonstrate the soundness of your own mind by accepting what the text clearly says?
Don't worry, I don't really expect an answer from you. You have come to the limit of your ability to interpret that text through the glasses of your preconceived theology and so you will do what you did with our very brief discussion on Romans 9. You will stuff your ears with cotton in order to avoid hearing the clear and logical implications of an honest and responsible analysis of the biblical text and then you will run away shouting stupid slogans like "their brain's don't work" as your final word on the topic.
Then you will move on to toss some other poorly concocted argument, maybe another cartoon, or a some half thought out analogy at Calvinism (which it appears you have already done), hoping that no one has a short term memory long enough to remember that this is the second time you failed to defend your flawed theology against the truth of scripture.
:wave2:
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Dialogos
Well-known member
Nope and neither does any other Calvinist I know.
Do you understand the implications of compatibilism?
Strike two. I have a very high opinion of God and don't think that you, or Clete or I am in any place to judge Him.GuySmiley said:
Why don't you ask what I believe rather than assume.GuySmiley said:
I put the added portion in bold letters.
I was quite serious when I said that its better for you to think you've won.
Please give mental assent to the idea that you've beaten me and go away.
My entire defense was to tell people to read it, idiot.
I've directly answered you argument, you just don't get it, which I expected.
To go any further would be to forfeit ground you've not earned.
My ENTIRE defense is to have people read the text.
Yep. That's what I did!
Resting in Him,
Clete
It is exactly what Dialogos is suggesting happened in Jeremiah 25.
Which, of course, didn't actually happen in Jeremaih 25 but his argument is that since that's what happened in Jeremiah 25 then we have to accept such actions on God's part to be just because it was God who did it. It doesn't matter that the same action taken by ANYONE else would be ridiculously unjust, its the fact that it was God who was the gangster that makes it just.
Notice that when I call such things unjust and they call them just, its only me that's "judging God"? :think:
There's not a Calvinist on this website that can think past his own nose.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Did you read the post?
Sin is rebellion against the God of Life. The result therefore is death.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Absolutely correct! God is sovereign.
Please define the word sovereign.
Here, let me....
To be sovereign means to be the highest authority. It does not mean that you are in meticulous control of everything that happens.
So, for example, if a king of a nation chooses a man to be commander of his army, the reason he does that is so that he doesn't have to make every decision relevant to the defense of the nation. He has delegated that decision making authority to his general. That doesn't mean that the king is no longer sovereign over his nation or even his army because the general serves at the king's request and remains under the king's authority and can have that authority revoked at the will of the king.
The point being that people doing evil things of their own free will does not undo the sovereignty of God! Their very lives are lived each day because God withholds His judgment against them. But that won't always be the case! One day, they will stand before God and answer for every fleeting thought, every idle word and every evil action they've committed and there will be no escape. God delegates our lives to us and will hold us accountable for what we do with them. He doesn't have to be planning every detail in advance and He doesn't have to lead evil people around by the nose in order to make sure they do what's been planned for them since before they existed. That isn't what it means to be sovereign, that is what it means to be a psychopath.
Resting in Him,
Clete
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Yer the only one ascribing unrighteousness to God.
Dialogos
Well-known member
Nope.
:nono:
Your very flawed analogy is not at all what I am suggesting happened in Jeremiah 25.
First, Babylon was not some unwilling bystander being dragged kicking and screaming against its collective national will to attack the nation of Judah. Babylon did what it had always planned to do, attack nations and rule the known eastern world. The King of Babylon did what he purposed in his heart to do. The fact that God was sovereign over his decisions does not release him of his own culpability or guilt in doing what he commanded Babylon to do.
You may not get this, but your inability to understand it does not make it false.
God is the eternal God who has always existed, His ways aren't your ways, nor are His thoughts your thoughts.
Of course notClete said:
, just ignore all the parts in bold and the scripture reads just like Clete needs it to.(Jeremiah 25:8-10 ESV) "Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts: Because you have not obeyed my words, behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the LORD, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp.
Why isn't the fact that it was God that did it enough for you?Clete said:
If God says He does something in scripture, I believe that He did it.
No it doesn't matter. First, because He's God and your not. God has never, nor will He ever answer to you!Clete said:
Second, you like analogies? Try this one on for size and see if the open theist version of your silly story lets God off the hook you erroneously think you have Him on.
One day in the land of Gangsterville there was an all powerful undercover police officer. He could stop bullets just by thinking about them stopping. He could dis-arm any assailant or criminal with the greatest of ease without tiring. One evening on his way home from a hard day of fighting crime he decides he wants a beer.
He stops at the next convenient store, he walks in and hears the thoughts of a man who is plotting to kill the cashier for a 6 pack of beer. This is no surprise to the officer. He has known this particular thief since the thief was born. He called the thief earlier in the day telling that thief where he could score an easy 6 pack and he knows that the thief is going to kill the cashier because that's this perpetrator's MO. The officer has been observing this thief for some time and he has killed a number of times before. Furthermore, he knows the thoughts of the man and can hear the internal monologue of the evil thief confirming his suspicions. He knows that the thief realizes that a dead cashier can't point anyone out of a line-up.
He sits back and watches as the man he called earlier pulls out the gun the officer knows he has in his waistcoat. The officer watches as the thief shouts at the cashier, gets the 6 pack of beer, and then points the gun at the cashier and pulls the trigger.
This officer could have easily disarmed the man, he could have stopped the bullet in mid air with just a word and saved the cashier's life, but he doesn't. He stands back the whole time and lets the man perform his evil deed.
The officer then stands aside as the thief gets into his truck and races away from the store as quickly as possible thinking he has gotten away with murder. He could have easily stopped the thief, but he just didn't.
As he is leaving, the officer doesn't bother writing down the plate number, he already knows it, and the officer waits a few months until the aggressive killer robs a few more convenience stores and kills a few more cashiers. After a few weeks pass, this police officer easily arrests the thief whom he has had the power to arrest all along and charges him with multiple counts of theft and murder.
Is this police officer of Gangsterville just by human standards?
Does the fact that the police officer didn't force the thief to kill anyone make it all ok?
Did that police officer have any moral responsibility, humanly speaking, to stop or prevent what he could have easily stopped or prevented?
Was the police officer even somewhat guilty, humanly speaking, for calling the thief and telling him where he could get an easy 6 pack knowing full well that the thief would shoot the cashier?
You think that Open Theism rescues God from being judged as unjust by your own, flawed, standards, but it doesn't.
From a human standpoint, your Open Theist version of God just makes God criminally negligent for not stopping something that he could have easily stopped and morally culpable for orchestrating a murder, even though He didn't force anyone to pull the trigger."
What you don't see is that your own theology has to account for the fact that God, in His sovereignty, lets people die everyday, lets thefts happen all the time, allows earthquakes, car accidents, plane crashes, bank robberies, murders, etc... All day, every day, and doesn't stop them even though He has more than enough power to stop them all without tiring.
From a finite and flawed human standpoint, that seems unjust to us.
But we aren't God, and God doesn't answer to our finite and flawed standards, and God doesn't owe us a single heartbeat nor does he owe us any explanations for why some live long and some die young.
God is righteous. Even if we can't understand how He can allow evil things to occur that we know He could prevent.
That's what Job learned.
But the next time you try and set a trap for Calvinism, makes sure you don't catch your own theology in it.
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George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
I define sovereignty in terms of authority but also ruling; as in the kingdom of God.
Finite kings rule finitely. Our infinite King is not only the highest authority; He rules with infinite power, glory and majesty. He who has the keys of hell and death is in the position of ultimate authority. But there is little reason for having ultimate authority if it is not used. He exercises His authority by ruling according to His perfect will - the "I will" of scripture. Gen 13:16KJV Is 42:16KJV Jer 12:17KJV Ezek 12:25KJV Mark 14:58KJV John 6:51KJV Because He is infinite He does not need to delegate.
The best example is with creation. He created, but He also sustains. All things were created by Christ and for Christ and in Him all things consist. He actively holds it all together. If it ever ceased to be for Him, God would not care about it and it would fly apart and disintegrate.
But He also rules over the heathen and uses their wickedness to His purposes. Is 44:25KJV Ex 9:11KJV Job 5:13KJV 1 Cor 1:21KJV
You don't understand Calvinism very well and your ego, pride, and overweening vanity are doing you fewer and fewer favors the longer this thread goes on.
Who asked you?
About a week or two ago I invited you to offer closing remarks so our dialogue could come to a cordial close. You ignored that post. And then this thread melted down into the kind of food fight typical of Christians left alone for a little while.
You started this thread to boast of your brilliance and your arrogance backfired on you. C'est la vie. I'll bow out and let you and your brethren get back to it, much good it'll do anybody.
Happy Sunday.
:e4e:
Who gave you the authority to redefine common words?
Making up definitions to words is a tactic that every false religion uses to maintain itself. It is the only way to maintain even a semblance of internal self-consistency. Without this logically fallacious tactic, false ideas cannot persist past a certain level of complexity.
The word sovereign has a definition, it doesn't need our help.
This does no damage to their sovereignty. Not in and of itself it doesn't, anyway. Earthly kings make mistakes in judgment and are most often evil even to the point of undermining their own authority but only as a consequence of their unrighteous action. The fact that they aren't perfect does not change the fact that so long as they are actually the highest authority in their respective kingdoms then they are the sovereign rulers of those kingdoms, by definition.
Quite so! This is part of what makes Him the highest authority but only part of it.
The Bile teaches us that His thrown, that is His authority, is built upon His righteousness and justice. In other words it is God quality that establishes His reign, not how big and strong He is.
Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Psalm 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.
Psalm 97:2 Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
Psalm 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.
Psalm 97:2 Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
And notice that the Bible doesn't use different language when talking about God's throne than it uses when talking about the thrones of men.
Proverbs 16:12 It is an abomination for kings to commit wickedness, For a throne is established by righteousness.
This is because words mean things. The word righteous means the same thing when applied to God as it does when its applied to you and me. Not because we are on par with God but simply because the word righteous means what it means.
Quite so!
There is no such thing as God's "perfect will" as apposed to just the will of God in the normal sense. The notion of "perfect will" is a theological construction designed to redefine the word 'will'.
The Bible is replete with examples of God wanting one thing and getting another. Nearly every page of the Bible has an example, it seems. Here's just two examples...
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him. (The Greek word for "will" here is "boulē", the strongest form of "will" (Strong's G1012) It's the same word that is used in Acts 2:23.)
Isaiah 5: Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:
My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it.”
7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.
Isaiah 5: Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:
My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it.”
7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.
And I'm not kidding, by the way. The bible is plumb full of example after example after example of God wanting one thing and getting another and Him having to respond to not just the actions of His enemies but the unrighteousness of those who are supposed to be His "elect", namely Israel. The bible is just completely full of comments like "Because you have done this, I [God] will do this." or "I [God] commanded this but you rejected my counsel, therefore I won't do what I said I would do." etc. The existence of the clear examples of this that exist all over the place cannot be denied even by the most strident of Calvinists and thus was born the "perfect" vs. the "permissive" will of God in order to intellectually preserve their understanding of divine sovereignty, which is itself a logical consequence of their belief in the absolute immutability of God, which no one would believe in had Augustine not bought so completely into the teachings of Plato and Aristotle.
Except that He does delegate!
God doesn't do everything, George! There are kings and rulers that have real authority. You and I have authority to live our lives the way we choose.
Further, I suspect that you've redefined the word 'infinite' here. I could be wrong so let me just ask you. Do you mean by infinite, "unlimited/inexhaustible" or do you mean "timeless/outside of time"?
Calvinists always seem to take this idea way past what is reasonable. God is not physically holding every atom together, actively preventing a universal atomic explosion. God is not directing the path of every photon of light or pushing each electron along its path in an electric circuit. The Calvinist's understanding of 'consist' would seem to mean that the universe is in a constant state of near collapse and that God is in a mode that equates essentially to a continuous act of creation.
My bible tells me that God created the Heavens, the Earth and EVERYTHING in them in six days and that He RESTED on the seventh.
God created the universe and it functions as designed by Him. It continues to exist for as long as He determines but that doesn't mean that its akin to a dilapidated car that is constantly in the shop with God as the forever mechanic that can't quite make it run on it own.
Ruling over and meticulously controlling are two different things (except in the mind's of most Calvinists, in which case the two are synonymous).
I have no issue with the idea that God uses, manipulates and maintains the boundaries of His enemies but that is altogether different than what Calvin taught and what most Calvinists believe.
God is real and so are human beings. God wants us to do rightly and we choose to rebel against Him rather than to love Him. In so doing, we do not defeat God. God is still sovereign! We human beings will stand before God's judgment throne and we will be made to give an account for our lives. Not even Calvinists deny this. How does it make sense to have to give an account for what God made us do? Who's the accountant and who's the debtor? If the accountant is the same one spending all the money, you end up with the Enron Corporation.
God is not running the Enron Corporation! God is JUST! God is RIGHTEOUS! (same thing, by the way), which is to say that God does rightly! He judges justly!
Genesis 18:25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
Daniel 9:14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice.
Zephaniah 3:5 The Lord is righteous in her midst, He will do no unrighteousness. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He never fails, But the unjust knows no shame.
Daniel 9:14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice.
Zephaniah 3:5 The Lord is righteous in her midst, He will do no unrighteousness. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He never fails, But the unjust knows no shame.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Granite,
Please forgive me!
I wasn't paying close enough attention and honestly had you confused with someone else!
I didn't ignore the post, I merely forgot.
My "who asked you" remark was my reaction to what I saw as a naked assertion that wasn't intended to add anything to the discussion or to show me how I'm wrong but merely to offer an unsolicited opinion which I'm not the least bit interested in.
Even you know that this is a lie.
I posted quotes from Calvin, not a single one of which has even been disagreed with by a single Calvinist yet, including even former Calvinists like yourself.
How in the hell is that me boasting about my brilliance?
And as for how the thread has developed, I make no apologies for anything I've said, aside from my last response to you. I get angry at people when they blaspheme God and attribute to Him actions that are unjust by any definition of that word that has any meaning. I'll continue to do so and if the consequence of that is that people think I'm nuts or a blow hard or a jerk or all of those things combined into one then so be it. I'm not here to make friends. I'm here to DEFEAT Calvinism and to destroy it to whatever extent this forum allows that to happen, even if that's only in the mind of a single individual.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Then in what way does the example serve as a counter example to my position?
You're lying!
The ONLY way citing this passage would work in an argument against my position is if you were suggesting that the passage says that God both forced Babylon to do something AND punished them for that same action.
THAT'S THE ONLY WAY YOUR ARGUMENT WORKS!
Again, of the two of us, I'm not the stupid one.
If by 'sovereign' you mean that he could not have decided otherwise, then yes it does release him, IF God is just, which of course He is.
This is the appeal to antinomy that all Calvinists run to when they run into blatant self-contradictory nonsense.
It isn't that I can't understand it, its that it CANNOT be understood. It is irrational nonsense, it is self-contradictory falsehood (same thing).
It isn't the part where God uses Babylon that I deny, moron.Of course not
(Jeremiah 25:8-10 ESV) "Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts: Because you have not obeyed my words, behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the LORD, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp.
Why isn't the fact that it was God that did it enough for you?
If God says He does something in scripture, I believe that He did it.
This is one of the reason why it is better for you to think you've won. You blaspheme God by impugning His righteousness at seemingly every opportunity!
IT DOES MATTER!!!!
God's ACTIONS are just and not merely because its God doing the action but because they are actually just! God's actions are just in EXACTLY the same sense and for exactly the same reason that anyone else's actions might be just.
So the Calvinist solution to the problem of evil is to make God the controller of it.
Notice also the implication here that if God can prevent evil and does not, He is guilty of wrong doing. More blasphemy, tacit blasphemy but blasphemy nonetheless.
At least in your scenario, the evil actions belong to the evil people and not to God (aside from your open implication that God's allowing of evil is itself evil). No one denies, not even the Calvinist that evil things happen all the time and neither of us denies that there is a judgment day coming and that justice will be done by God against all doers of iniquity. The actions of men do not dethrone God! Evil exists in this word and as a result bad things happen. God could, as you suggest, stop all the evil from happening, but to do so would be to end the human race, which He will do, eventually. We can take comfort in the fact that God waiting to enact judgment is His mercy. For while there is life there is hope.
See what I mean? Its not even an implication, its stated blatantly!
The fact is that bad things DO happen in the world, Dialogos! It is YOUR doctrine that teaches mercy is the opposite of or contrary to justice, not mine!
Our lives, our very souls belong to God. It is not unjust for God to take someone from this physical life to the next, for whatever reason. What would be unjust would be for God to PUNISH someone for actions that He commanded them to perform and/or that they could not refuse to do.
You wouldn't know what justice is if it came up and slapped you in the face!
I have a hard time grasping that here are people in the world who's brains are so dysfunctional that they cannot tell when they are insulting God's righteousness.
Bad things actually do happen and not just in your scenario but in the real world! If it happens its because God didn't prevent it, whether Open Theism is right or not! In other words, this argument doesn't work as an argument against Open Theism but ONLY as an argument against the righteousness of God!!
You sound like an atheist!
You sound EXACTLY like an atheist!
This is undeniable! I don't have to account for it. This is the story of not just the bible but the whole history of history!
If you read the bible all the way to the end of the book, you find out that God wins and justice triumphs over evil. Not because God planned out every evil act but because God actually does defeat evil.
Only if your immature in the faith and haven't thought through such issues or if your mind doesn't work.
OUR standards?
Who said that they are OUR standards? I wasn't consulted when the principles of righteousness were taught in scripture. No one asked my opinion about what should be done with the wicked. No one sought my counsel when formulating the statutes of justice.
They aren't OUR standards, they're GOD'S standards!
No one, except you, has suggested otherwise.
The difference is that when I say that God is righteous it means that God does rightly, when you say it, it means nothing at all other than that God does what He does.
There is zero danger of that ever happening. You don't even understand what Open Theism teaches and you certainly don't have a clue about what I teach.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Dialogos
Well-known member
These comments show that you are completely ignorant about Calvinism just as Calvinists on this board have been telling you, probably for years.
Why do you insist on arguing from ignorance?
If you had even a basic understanding of what Calvinism actually teaches you wouldn't continue to offer up false dilemmas like this one.
God didn't "force" Babylon to do anything. God doesn't "force" us to make our decisions either. This isn't Calvinism and if this is the argument you have been pushing down then you have been proving what Calvinists here have been claiming for some time now, that you don't really understand Calvinism (which is ignorance) or that you do and you choose to misrepresent it intentionally (which is dishonest).
I certainly hope it is the former.
Operating under that assumption then, you should probably know that most Calvinist/reformed creeds are consistent with the Westminster standards which state, so very clearly:
"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." (WCF 3:1 WCF)
God didn't "force" Babylon to destroy Israel. Nebuchadnezzar didn't wake up one morning finding that his body had been taken over and was forced by some divine mind control to do something that he never would have done otherwise.
God nevertheless decreed that Israel be destroyed by Babylon.
Now, maybe you can't see the difference. Maybe you are just intellectually unable to understand the distinction. Maybe you can't see the difference between God forcing Nebuchadnezzar to do something against his will and God decreeing that Nebuchadnezzar would do something completely in line with the voluntary exercise of his will.
If that's the case, we understand. But your cognitive limitations don't constrain the logical implications of the scriptures.
This is the kind of approach a middle school bully takes when he loses an argument too. He just starts calling others names.Clete said:
Wrong.Clete said:
You are once again operating from a false dilemma. Nebuchadnezzar could not have decided to do other than what God decreed he would do. That does not mean he didn't do exactly what the desires of his heart led him to do.
You clearly don't understand what a self-contradiction is.Clete said:
A self contradiction is when an argument claims that something is (A) and not (A) at the same time.
There is nothing self-contradictory about the claim that Nebuchadnezzar did what his heart led him to do and that is entirely consistent with what God decreed he would do.
So your cognitive capacities are the benchmark by which we are all supposed to gauge sound argumentation?Clete said:
That's an awful narcissistic way of interpreting the scripture.
You call me names all you like, Clete.Clete said:
You won't convince anyone by acting like a pouting kindergartner.
Clete, I don't care who thinks who "won." There is no prize worth having awarded for "winning" on these boards.Clete said:
I count it a win if people will consider carefully the claims that are made, weigh the arguments in their own minds and prayerfully come to the conclusion that most glorifies God.
No argument here.Clete said:
Here is where you err.Clete said:
God can and does end the life of His creatures for His own purposes.
We cannot.
You can't off your neighbor because its your plan and purpose for their life that they die.
God can and does.
You keep wanting to bring God down so that he can be judged according to human standards but you fail to recognize that the Creator is not, will not, and cannot be judged by the creation.
Until you get that you will continue to foolishly talk about what God does as if you and He were on the same level. As if you were talking about the behavior of your next door neighbor.
:nono:
Foolishness indeed.
Of course God controls evil!Clete said:
That's what Joseph told his brothers!
"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." (Genesis 50:20 ESV)
No, I consistently maintain that God can prevent evil and does not prevent evil and remains innocent of any wrongdoing because God is the Creator and can do with His creation as He sees fit.Clete said:
Your argument is that God is subject to the same standards as your next door neighbor. If your next door neighbor had a pool party and watched a kid from the neighborhood fall into his pool and drown when he could have easily jumped in to save him, you would accuse that neighbor of wrongdoing.
I guarantee you would.
But God witnesses people die every day that he could have saved. In fact, you and I would agree that God could save them all from death.
But He doesn't.
Why?
What's the difference between the next door neighbor and God?
Answer: God is the Creator!
He does what He sees fit with His creation, He has every right to do so. It may do some damage to our inflated sense of self importance to realize that God knows what is best.
Honestly, we are all very fortunate that the God Who has the right to do as He sees fit with His creation promises to make all things work for the good of those of us who love Him.
We should be praising God for His grace and mercy rather than criticizing His decrees.
My scenerio was an answer to your ridiculous scenerio. Neither represent what Calvinism teaches or what the scriptures say.Clete said:
The scriptures are clear that God decrees all things that come to pass, and that people make authentic choices.
God decreed that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Jerusalem, Nebuchadnezzar chose to do so.
No conflict, no self contradiction, just God's decree in perfect alignment with human choice.
I was with you all the way to the end there Clete.Clete said:
What do you mean that to "stop evil would mean to end the human race"?
God will one day in fact, stop evil, and there will still be humans, lots of 'em, all praising the Lamb on the throne.
The elimination of evil does not entail the elimination of humanity, that is a very flawed argument and one that fails to recognize the whole point of salvation.
My doctrine teaches that justice is what we deserve.Clete said:
We all deserve death, no one deserved to live even as long as we all have.
Mercy is getting what we didn't earn, and don't deserve.
What about that do you find objectionable?
I'm glad we agree.Clete said:
God punished Babylon for what He decreed they would do.Clete said:
You can't escape that reality.
If you want place yourself on the judges bench and seek to condemn God for that, then your argument isn't with me anymore.
But rest assured, it is clear from the consistent testimony of scripture that God did use Babylon to destroy Israel and it is clear that God calls them to account because of what they have done to Israel.
" Set yourselves in array against Babylon all around, all you who bend the bow; shoot at her, spare no arrows, for she has sinned against the LORD. Raise a shout against her all around; she has surrendered; her bulwarks have fallen; her walls are thrown down. For this is the vengeance of the LORD: take vengeance on her; do to her as she has done. Cut off from Babylon the sower, and the one who handles the sickle in time of harvest; because of the sword of the oppressor, every one shall turn to his own people, and every one shall flee to his own land. "Israel is a hunted sheep driven away by lions. First the king of Assyria devoured him, and now at last Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has gnawed his bones. Therefore, thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I am bringing punishment on the king of Babylon and his land, as I punished the king of Assyria. I will restore Israel to his pasture, and he shall feed on Carmel and in Bashan, and his desire shall be satisfied on the hills of Ephraim and in Gilead. (Jeremiah 50:14-19 ESV)
"I will repay Babylon and all the inhabitants of Chaldea before your very eyes for all the evil that they have done in Zion, declares the LORD. "Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, declares the LORD, which destroys the whole earth; I will stretch out my hand against you, and roll you down from the crags, and make you a burnt mountain.
(Jer 51:24-25 ESV)
"Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon has devoured me; he has crushed me; he has made me an empty vessel; he has swallowed me like a monster; he has filled his stomach with my delicacies; he has rinsed me out. The violence done to me and to my kinsmen be upon Babylon," let the inhabitant of Zion say. "My blood be upon the inhabitants of Chaldea," let Jerusalem say. Therefore thus says the LORD: "Behold, I will plead your cause and take vengeance for you. I will dry up her sea and make her fountain dry, and Babylon shall become a heap of ruins, the haunt of jackals, a horror and a hissing, without inhabitant. (Jeremiah 51:34-37 ESV)
"For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land, (Joel 3:1-2 ESV)
O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed, blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us! (Psalm 137:8 ESV)
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beloved57
Well-known member
clete
Thats exactly what God has done to the Vessels of Wrath He fits for destruction, He Justly punishes them for sinful actions that they had no choice but to willingly do because He determined it ! That means they could not have refused not to do it, and not to do it willingly! The example is Pharoah which Paul sets forth in Rom 9:17-20
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
You see that ? Them who repliest against God like yourself, have concluded that if it be this way Paul, then why does God find fault, if indeed we cannot resist His predetermined will for us to do evil ? If we had no choice in the matter ! So Paul already anticipated people like you, a sinful worm like me and you have no right to question God's ways, we either bow to them, or remain in rebellion.
Heres a warning to you and others like you who rail that God would be Unjust for doing what He wants to do:
Isa 45:9
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Your very post here:
Thats exactly what God has done to the Vessels of Wrath He fits for destruction, He Justly punishes them for sinful actions that they had no choice but to willingly do because He determined it ! That means they could not have refused not to do it, and not to do it willingly! The example is Pharoah which Paul sets forth in Rom 9:17-20
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
You see that ? Them who repliest against God like yourself, have concluded that if it be this way Paul, then why does God find fault, if indeed we cannot resist His predetermined will for us to do evil ? If we had no choice in the matter ! So Paul already anticipated people like you, a sinful worm like me and you have no right to question God's ways, we either bow to them, or remain in rebellion.
Heres a warning to you and others like you who rail that God would be Unjust for doing what He wants to do:
Isa 45:9
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Your very post here:
Blasphemous stupidity!
And you say that I am the one accusing God of wrong doing!
You are not a Christian.
When confronted with such a notion the rational person rejects it on the basis of justice. What the Calvinists do instead is redefine the word 'justice' and pretend that everything is okay because they can SAY that God is just with their new definition in place.
The problem for them is that justice has a meaning and you don't get to modify it except in theological la la land.
The passage is referencing Jeremiah 18 which makes it clear that the potter and clay analogy is applied to nations, not individuals.
As for Pharaoh, he's named because he is the head of the nation but even so, Pharaoh could have chosen to let Israel go, and eventually did (Gen. 6:1) although he repented of that action and was subsequently killed. But he would not have been killed had he not come after Israel and his nation would not have had to endure the plagues (notice that it was the NATION of Egypt that endured the plagues and not just Pharaoh) had he permitted the Jews to leave. He allowed his nation to endure ten plagues, it could have been seven or four or one or none. Pharaoh had a choice thus his punishment was just.
Exodus 8:‘Thus says the Lord: “Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 2 But if you refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite all your territory with frogs.
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.
20...“Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 21 Or else, if you will not let My people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies on you and your servants,...
31 ...He removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. Not one remained. 32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.
Exodus 9:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh and tell him, ‘Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews: “Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 2 For if you refuse to let them go, and still hold them, 3 behold, the hand of the Lord will be on your cattle in the field, on the horses, on the donkeys, on the camels, on the oxen, and on the sheep—a very severe pestilence.
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.
20...“Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 21 Or else, if you will not let My people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies on you and your servants,...
31 ...He removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. Not one remained. 32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.
Exodus 9:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh and tell him, ‘Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews: “Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 2 For if you refuse to let them go, and still hold them, 3 behold, the hand of the Lord will be on your cattle in the field, on the horses, on the donkeys, on the camels, on the oxen, and on the sheep—a very severe pestilence.
Notice that I DO NOT deny that God was intentionally manipulating Pharaoh! He clearly was doing so but His doing so was part of His judgment against Pharaoh and the nation of Egypt for having done evil toward Israel. God did not force Pharaoh to rebel against Him, He didn't need to! Pharaoh rebelled and God performed undeniable physical miracles to prove Pharaoh wrong which was intended to create even more rebellion in Pharaoh, which is the normal reaction that people have when they witness undeniable physical miracles.
If this interpretation of this passage were correct then God would in fact be unjust and I frankly wouldn't have anything to do with him.
You should understand that this sort of comment really makes me viscerally angry! You are saying, whether you admit it or not. That we must bow to God, no matter how unjust he is! I won't do it! I will not bow to an unjust god. You can believe in all the unjust gods you want but I'm telling you that if you think that its the God of the bible who has acted unjustly (whether you call it unjust or not) its because your mind does not work! Your mind has become debased divorced from rationality and therefore truth and therefore God!
You have the same choice as Pharaoh, repent or die.
Blasphemy! :madmad:
You use God's own word to call evil good! You deserve death and have trusted the wrong god for your salvation!
Doubt that do you?!
Answer this question...
Why would Jesus need to die if God can do WHATEVER He wants and it would still be just by virtue of the fact the He did it?
WHY?
Where is the need for Calvary? If God can just do anything at all then why not just stop all the games, end the human race as we know it and bring all those he wants up to heaven? Why go through killing His Son? Why would God need to do that in your worldview?
The whole gospel is predicated on JUSTICE!!!! But your entire theological worldview, from beginning to end, undermines justice and renders it meaningless! Justice derives its meaning from the character of God but you make God into an arbitrary bully who can do any random thing whether its consistent with the principles of right and wrong or not!
Principles, by the way, that God Himself gave us! Who are you to say what is just? God said what justice is! God said what is right and what is wrong! Not you and certainly not me! If God is guilty of the things you claim He is guilty of, it isn't me that proclaims Him unjust, it is His own word! But you can't think it through far enough to figure that out! Your mind has ceased to function! You've given over the power of your mind to your teachers and your pastor! Repent or justly die in your sin!
Resting in Him,
Clete