John 20:28 and the Trinity

[john w]

1 John 4 KJV
12 No man hath seen God at any time.
______________________

Judges 13 KJV
13 And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord delivered them into the hand of the Philistines forty years.

2 And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not. 3 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son. 4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing: 5 for, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name: 7 but he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

8 Then Manoah intreated the Lord, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born. 9 And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her. 10 And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day. 11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am. 12 And Manoah said, Now let thy words come to pass. How shall we order the child, and how shall we do unto him? 13 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware. 14 She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe.

15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. 16 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord. 17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? 18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? 19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on. 20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground. 21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

 

[john w]

1 John 4 KJV
12 No man hath seen God at any time.
__________________________
Joshua 5 KJV
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the Lord’s host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Exodus 3 KJV
Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. 2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

 

[john w]

1 John 4 KJV
12 No man hath seen God at any time.
_________________________________

Exodus 33 KJV
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22 and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 and I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.



Genesis 32 KJV
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Hosea 12 KJV
1 Ephraim feedeth on wind,and followeth after the east wind:he daily increaseth lies and desolation;and they do make a covenant with the Assyrians,and oil is carried into Egypt.2 The Lord hath also a controversy with Judah,and will punish Jacob according to his ways;according to his doings will he recompense him.3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb,and by his strength he had power with God:4 yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed:he wept, and made supplication unto him:

Genesis 48 KJV
15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, 16 the Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

 

[Rosenritter]

Are you saying that NO man can redeem man but only YHWH sacrificing himself can redeem man?

1. Forgiveness is a sacrifice. If I forgive a debt of money that you owe me, that means I transfer the transgression (the debt) to myself, I absorb what you properly (by all rights) ought to owe. I sacrifice my resources to pay your debt (to me.)

2. The wages of sin is death. If God forgives our sin, that means he absorbs the damage of our transgression without requiring our deaths. He might have the right to "bear a grudge" but he sacrifices this right. The bible itself invokes this analogy of wage and payment and sacrifice with regard to sin. It doesn't just "go away" or "vanish" as the transgression is serious.

3. A man might be able to forgive your debt of money to me if he pays that amount of money, because money is fluid and transferable. There is no difference between one coin and the next or one digital dollar and the next. It adds together as a single numeric sum. But a man cannot forgive a debt of justice or vengeance that you have against another man. For example, if you murder a classroom of children, can a random person appear and say "I'm going to take his death penalty" and will that satisfy the justice system or those parents? Not unless they are psychopaths and just want lots of blood to be shed no matter who it is from. Those parents might choose to forgive the debt of those deaths of that murderer, but the forgiveness (and the damage, the sacrifice) is from the parents.

4. Sin is against God. Only God can forgive sin, that is scriptural, and it is common sense following all of our reasoning above. If God is to forgive sin, that means he forgives our transgression, and absorbs the damage of our sin by waiving the penalty he should rightfully require of us. That is, the penalty of our death. Killing someone else who was innocent doesn't make it any better, any more than the parents of a slain child would want more innocent children to die in order to comfort them.

Isaiah 52:10 KJV
(10) The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isaiah 53:1,5-6 KJV
(1) Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
(5) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
(6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The arm of the LORD can only be the LORD himself, not simply another man. Who can forgive sin, but God alone?

Mark 2:5-7 KJV
(5) When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
(6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
(7) Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

 

[Rosenritter]

You are absolutely correct. God judges EACH of us, by how successful we are at TRANSFORMING our spirit/mind/heart FROM our natural/created spirit/mind/heart....and our works/behavior from the "natural man".
So, in this sense, man was NOT created in God's likeness ..... but MUST "put on a NEW man .... in God's likeness".

The problems with your theory are NOT surmountable.
1) God made man in His image Tselem .. which ALWAYS means a visual representation.

Surmountable. That is your premise, which you are trying to prove. It is not a proven. God might "see" things quite differently than you "see."

2) God is described throughout Scripture, with the same features we have.

Well answered through analogy. God would pick suitable analogies when speaking with us. Yet even here he is described as having foreign features as well, including WINGS.

Psalms 17:8 KJV
(8) Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,

Psalms 36:7 KJV
(7) How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.


If you want to argue that "wings" are metaphorical, then you cannot consistently maintain that "arms" and "hands" are always literal.

3) Jehovah/YHVH God describes HIMSELF with the same features we have, and agreed to show SOME of them to Moses.
4) Part of the promises to the righteous are getting to "see God", "see His face" (which Jesus said the angels always do)[

Seriously? "Back" is a very metaphorical term. Likewise for "face." Such as the common expression, "Say that to my face!" which has nothing to do with the actual face. Again, "wings" imply a whole different body structure to support the muscles, presence of feathers (or perhaps they are mammalian bat wings?)

5) Scripture REPEATEDLY explains the VAST difference between human mentality, and His. And, that is even AFTER humans acquired "the knowledge of good and evil". So, there is NO WAY humans are RATIONALLY in God's image.

I would say men are in God's image rationally but even more so spiritually. Rationally, the most genius animal doesn't come close to the most retarded human. Men make choices for good or evil, they love or hate, they choose their own paths in a way that animals do not. We can interact with God in a way that animals cannot, and that has nothing to do with physical looks. Animals simply wouldn't relate. Men and angels do.

A suggestion... don't abuse words like "insurmountable" when your conjecture is easily answered from the opposing perspective.

 

[john w]

1 John 4 KJV
12 No man hath seen God at any time.
______________________
Genesis 16 KJV
7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. 9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. 10 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. 13 And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? 14 Wherefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered. 15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son’s name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael. 16 And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.

 

[john w]

1 John 4 KJV
12 No man hath seen God at any time.
_______________________
Judges 6 KJV
11 And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abi-ezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites. 12 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour. 13 And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites. 14 And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee? 15 And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father’s house. 16 And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man. 17 And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me. 18 Depart not hence, I pray thee, until I come unto thee, and bring forth my present, and set it before thee. And he said, I will tarry until thou come again.

19 And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid, and unleavened cakes of an ephah of flour: the flesh he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out unto him under the oak, and presented it. 20 And the angel of God said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the Lord departed out of his sight. 22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the Lord, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord God! for because I have seen an angel of the Lord face to face. 23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die. 24 Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovah-shalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abi-ezrites.25 And it came to pass the same night, that the Lord said unto him, Take thy father’s young bullock, even the second bullock of seven years old, and throw down the altar of Baal that thy father hath, and cut down the grove that is by it: 26 and build an altar unto the LORD thy God upon the top of this rock, in the ordered place, and take the second bullock, and offer a burnt sacrifice with the wood of the grove which thou shalt cut down. 27 Then Gideon took ten men of his servants, and did as the LORD had said unto him: and so it was, because he feared his father’s household, and the men of the city, that he could not do it by day, that he did it by night.

 

[Dartman]

...

Well answered through analogy. God would pick suitable analogies when speaking with us. Yet even here he is described as having foreign features as well, including WINGS.

Psalms 17:8 KJV
(8) Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,

Psalms 36:7 KJV
(7) How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.


If you want to argue that "wings" are metaphorical, then you cannot consistently maintain that "arms" and "hands" are always literal.

I most certainly do not believe "arm" or "hand" are ALWAYS literal. But, Scripture should be read as literal, until proven figurative.

Seriously? "Back" is a very metaphorical term. Likewise for "face." Such as the common expression, "Say that to my face!" which has nothing to do with the actual face.

Then you should have no problem going through ex 33:17-23, and explaining the metaphorical meaning you believe is there. Pay CLOSE attention to explaining how seeing Jehovah/YHVH God's face would have killed Moses.
AND you should have no problem explaining away how seeing God in THIS SPECIFIC EVENT caused Moses' face to shine.

I would say men are in God's image rationally but even more so spiritually. Rationally, the most genius animal doesn't come close to the most retarded human. Men make choices for good or evil, they love or hate, they choose their own paths in a way that animals do not. We can interact with God in a way that animals cannot, and that has nothing to do with physical looks. Animals simply wouldn't relate. Men and angels do.

You have failed to explain away the Scriptures that CLEARLY show man as created, is NOT in God's image spiritually .... in fact they were created without the "knowledge of good and evil". MANY Scriptures explain that man MUST CHANGE from how he was created!!!

A suggestion... don't abuse phrases like "easily answered" when your conjecture is such a failure.

 

[Rosenritter]

I most certainly do not believe "arm" or "hand" are ALWAYS literal. But, Scripture should be read as literal, until proven figurative.
Then you should have no problem going through ex 33:17-23, and explaining the metaphorical meaning you believe is there. Pay CLOSE attention to explaining how seeing Jehovah/YHVH God's face would have killed Moses.
AND you should have no problem explaining away how seeing God in THIS SPECIFIC EVENT caused Moses' face to shine.

Surely you aren't serious about suggesting that if "face" is metaphorical as in "the face of God" (meaning the direct glory of God) that "face" cannot be literal in the case of Moses?

I can easily understand how a mortal man could not behold and comphrehend (see) the full glory (face) of God and live because we can only handle or process so much and certain levels of sensory input. I am more interested in your idea that the Forehead-Eyes-Nose-Mouth combination of God (the literal "face") is intrinsically deadly to the human species. Explain that please.

You have failed to explain away the Scriptures that CLEARLY show man as created, is NOT in God's image spiritually .... in fact they were created without the "knowledge of good and evil". MANY Scriptures explain that man MUST CHANGE from how he was created!!!

Your question doesn't make sense, even on the grammar and content level. This isn't mockery, I'm asking you to rephrase your question/statement so it makes sense.

A suggestion... don't abuse phrases like "easily answered" when your conjecture is such a failure.

Maybe take a break for an hour... you're sounding a bit heated.

 

[Dartman]

Surely you aren't serious about suggesting that if "face" is metaphorical as in "the face of God" (meaning the direct glory of God) that "face" cannot be literal in the case of Moses?

So, are you willing to consider that in Moses case "Face" IS literal?

I can easily understand how a mortal man could not behold and comphrehend (see) the full glory (face) of God and live because we can only handle or process so much and certain levels of sensory input.

Pure speculation.

I am more interested in your idea that the Forehead-Eyes-Nose-Mouth combination of God (the literal "face") is intrinsically deadly to the human species. Explain that please.

No.

There is no Scripture explaining HOW seeing God's literal face would kill Moses.

So, I have no intention to speculate.

However, Jehovah/YHVH God HIMSELF said "no man can see Me and live". The only other option to "live" is dead.

Your question doesn't make sense, even on the grammar and content level. This isn't mockery, I'm asking you to rephrase your question/statement so it makes sense.

Sure.

You have failed to explain away the Scriptures that CLEARLY show man, as created, is NOT in God's image spiritually.

I added a comma, and highlighted a phrase .... I hope that helps.

.... in fact they were created without the "knowledge of good and evil".

Gen 3:6-7 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

MANY Scriptures explain that man MUST CHANGE from how he was created!!!

Rom 12:1-2 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.


Eph 4:17-24 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.


As created, we are NOT in God's "likeness" regarding "righteousness and holiness of the truth". We must "put on a NEW self" in order to be in God's likeness in this way.

As humans, we already look like God.

 

[Rosenritter]

So, are you willing to consider that in Moses case "Face" IS literal?

Considering that they concealed the face of Moses with a veil the context shows that the face of Moses was indeed his physical face, that segment of the human body that is on our head, such as would be covered with a veil.

In the context of that same passage where Moses spoke with the LORD on the mountain, it says that the LORD talked 'face to face" with Moses, as one would a friend. Then Moses asks to see the face of God. The word "face" cannot have the same meaning in both applications. If one is literal, then the other must be metaphorical.

Exodus 33:11 KJV
(11) And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Pure speculation.

No, it is NOT "pure speculation" that the "face of God" that we cannot behold is the "fully glory of the LORD." That is EXACTLY what God said to Moses in Exodus. that is the opposite of "pure speculation" but rather "pure revelation."

Exodus 33:18-20 KJV
(18) And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
(19) And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
(20) And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Moses asks to see "thy glory" and the LORD says that Moses cannot see "my face." Also see the next three verses, as it reemphasizes that the LORD shall cover Moses when his glory passes by, "while my glory passeth by... I ... will cover thee with my hand..." and in so doing, "my face shall not be seen."

There is no Scripture explaining HOW seeing God's literal face would kill Moses.

But since we know that the "face" that cannot be seen without death is "the glory" of God, that still leaves Moses speaking with the LORD, "face to face, as one would a friend" as a literal face. The idea that God could not appear with an eyes-mouth-nose combination without killing someone seems rather bizarre... and not actually stated or supported in other scripture.

So, I have no intention to speculate.

The "literal physical face" being deadly is speculation. You're already speculating. Nothing wrong with speculating, but that which is speculated should be subject to examination.

However, Jehovah/YHVH God HIMSELF said "no man can see Me and live". The only other option to "live" is dead.

Moses lived, the LORD spoke "face to face" with him. The deadly "face" was defined as the Glory of God.

Sure.

I added a comma, and highlighted a phrase .... I hope that helps.
You have failed to explain away the Scriptures that CLEARLY show man, as created, is NOT in God's image spiritually.

"Explain away" is an element of leading question and you haven't made any statements from the passages that say what you're thinking. Man is certainly created in the image of God spiritually.

As created, we are NOT in God's "likeness" regarding "righteousness and holiness of the truth". We must "put on a NEW self" in order to be in God's likeness in this way.

"God is a spirit" it says. Physical attributes are PHYSICAL attributes. God is not defined by physical attributes, because God existed before the physical world existed. That's basic and undeniable per Genesis 1 and John 1.

"Likeness" is not "righteousness and holiness of truth" or at least certainly not limited by such. Rational thought and the ability to love or hate describe this image. A computer is not in the likeness of God, an animal or plant is not in the likeness of God, and a robot is not in the likeness of God, no matter how you dress up the robot to make it look human.

Otherwise it would be a crime of MURDER to destroy a robot, because it is "made in the image of God." Your assertion logically extends into absurdity, therefore its premise must have one or more flaws.

As humans, we already look like God.

I cannot recall you answering whether someone who has lost arms and legs in an accident and had their visage marred is still "in the image of God." If not, is it OK to kill them without it being murder?

 

[Dartman]

Considering that they concealed the face of Moses with a veil the context shows that the face of Moses was indeed his physical face, that segment of the human body that is on our head, such as would be covered with a veil.

So, the veil that covered Moses is literal, Moses' face is literal, the brightness (glory) of Moses' face is literal ...... but the hand that covered Moses so he wouldn't SEE God's face, as they spoke "face to face", isn't literal, and God's back isn't literal, and God's face isn't literal ....... I think your agenda is transparent.

In the context of that same passage where Moses spoke with the LORD on the mountain, it says that the LORD talked 'face to face" with Moses, as one would a friend. Then Moses asks to see the face of God. The word "face" cannot have the same meaning in both applications. If one is literal, then the other must be metaphorical.

God's "glory" cannot be His face. Jehovah told Moses He WOULD show Moses His glory, but He would NOT show Moses God's face. Moses didn't ask to see God's face, he asked to see His glory. And Jehovah agreed.

No, it is NOT "pure speculation" that the "face of God" that we cannot behold is the "fully glory of the LORD." That is EXACTLY what God said to Moses in Exodus. that is the opposite of "pure speculation" but rather "pure revelation."

Your response is dishonest. You have intentionally avoided the "pure speculation";
Here is what I called "pure speculation"; I can easily understand how a mortal man could not behold and comphrehend (see) the full glory (face) of God and live because we can only handle or process so much and certain levels of sensory input.

You should take a deep breath, and reevaluate your honesty.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again john w,

Please teach us another "original" stumper, that we've never heard before. Please?
Slower:And I write this to those that have ears to hear, bible believers, not bible correctors/agnostics/mystics.

I thought I had better introduce my following comments with the above. You have quoted 1 John 4:12 and then quoted numerous OT quotes and I will abbreviate by mentioning the first, and even here show a few relevant verses:

1 John 4 KJV
12 No man hath seen God at any time.
Judges 13:1-22 KJV 3 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

I suggest that the logic that you are presenting is that John did not really know what he was saying, or that he was saying that no man has seen God the Father, but God the Son can be seen. But the only way I can reconcile the OT passages that you quoted is that these encounters are with an Angel who represented God and spoke and acted on His behalf.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[john w]

Greetings again john w, I thought I had better introduce my following comments with the above. You have quoted 1 John 4:12 and then quoted numerous OT quotes and I will abbreviate by mentioning the first, and even here show a few relevant verses: I suggest that the logic that you are presenting is that John did not really know what he was saying, or that he was saying that no man has seen God the Father, but God the Son can be seen. But the only way I can reconcile the OT passages that you quoted is that these encounters are with an Angel who represented God and spoke and acted on His behalf.

Kind regards
Trevor

=spam, demonic intoxication, and no refutation, as I picked you apart, leaving you with, "IMO."

Slower:And I write to those that have ears to hear, bible believers, not bible correctors/agnostics/mystics, such as yourself, as you admitted.

 

[Rosenritter]

So, the veil that covered Moses is literal, Moses' face is literal, the brightness (glory) of Moses' face is literal ...... but the hand that covered Moses so he wouldn't SEE God's face, as they spoke "face to face", isn't literal, and God's back isn't literal, and God's face isn't literal ....... I think your agenda is transparent.

Agenda? Please tell me what agenda this might be.

God's "glory" cannot be His face. Jehovah told Moses He WOULD show Moses His glory, but He would NOT show Moses God's face. Moses didn't ask to see God's face, he asked to see His glory. And Jehovah agreed.

Please, stop bending my words out of their context. "Face" is "full glory", "back" or "covered by hand" is analogous to a partial glimpse of that glory. Am I really required to qualify each word of "glory" with "full" around you?

Your response is dishonest. You have intentionally avoided the "pure speculation";
Here is what I called "pure speculation"; I can easily understand how a mortal man could not behold and comphrehend (see) the full glory (face) of God and live because we can only handle or process so much and certain levels of sensory input.

You should take a deep breath, and reevaluate your honesty.

If you are going to accuse my honesty then there's no more point in talking.

 

[Dartman]

Agenda? Please tell me what agenda this might be.

Twisting the text between "literal and not literal solely dependent on your preconceived notions.

God's "glory" cannot be His face. Jehovah told Moses He WOULD show Moses His glory, but He would NOT show Moses God's face. Moses didn't ask to see God's face, he asked to see His glory. And Jehovah agreed.

Please, stop bending my words out of their context. "Face" is "full glory", "back" or "covered by hand" is analogous to a partial glimpse of that glory. Am I really required to qualify each word of "glory" with "full" around you?

There is no used of "full glory" or "partial glory". God said He would show His "glory", but He would not show his face, or Moses would not live.

You are still attempting to ignore the challenge;

Then you should have no problem going through ex 33:17-23, and explaining the metaphorical meaning you believe is there. Pay CLOSE attention to explaining how seeing Jehovah/YHVH God's face would have killed Moses.

If you are going to accuse my honesty then there's no more point in talking.

Please respond accurately to my points;

You have intentionally avoided the "pure speculation"; Here is what I called "pure speculation";

I can easily understand how a mortal man could not behold and comphrehend (see) the full glory (face) of God and live because we can only handle or process so much and certain levels of sensory input.

Please explain how you think this is NOT speculation.

 

[NWL]

1. Forgiveness is a sacrifice. If I forgive a debt of money that you owe me, that means I transfer the transgression (the debt) to myself, I absorb what you properly (by all rights) ought to owe. I sacrifice my resources to pay your debt (to me.)

The example you used only works as its specific, namely, that money is the thing being owed and forgiveness by any said person to the preparator involves allowing a loss. If I commit adultery I have also sinned against God, if God then forgave me for that sin he hasn't lossed or sacrificed anything, he's simply shown mercy. So yes, in regards to tangible things forgiving someone in a sense could be said to be a sacrifice, buts its not the rule, nor does it show that the ransom for mankind had to be YHWH himself.

2. The wages of sin is death. If God forgives our sin, that means he absorbs the damage of our transgression without requiring our deaths. He might have the right to "bear a grudge" but he sacrifices this right. The bible itself invokes this analogy of wage and payment and sacrifice with regard to sin. It doesn't just "go away" or "vanish" as the transgression is serious.

That's not what Roman 6:23 means at. All men die because we all sin (wages of sin pays is death), its only through God gift of eternal life that those who are dead or will one day die can come to life again. The gift of eternal life is given upon human death, not after, as your reasoning would imply.

3. A man might be able to forgive your debt of money to me if he pays that amount of money, because money is fluid and transferable. There is no difference between one coin and the next or one digital dollar and the next. It adds together as a single numeric sum. But a man cannot forgive a debt of justice or vengeance that you have against another man. For example, if you murder a classroom of children, can a random person appear and say "I'm going to take his death penalty" and will that satisfy the justice system or those parents? Not unless they are psychopaths and just want lots of blood to be shed no matter who it is from. Those parents might choose to forgive the debt of those deaths of that murderer, but the forgiveness (and the damage, the sacrifice) is from the parents.

Thank you for your response, none of it explains why the ransom of mankind had to be YHWH himself though.

4. Sin is against God. Only God can forgive sin, that is scriptural, and it is common sense following all of our reasoning above. If God is to forgive sin, that means he forgives our transgression, and absorbs the damage of our sin by waiving the penalty he should rightfully require of us. That is, the penalty of our death. Killing someone else who was innocent doesn't make it any better, any more than the parents of a slain child would want more innocent children to die in order to comfort them.

Show me a scripture that teaches only God can forgive sin, this is simply not true and not taught in the bible.

Please show me clear cut evidence that the sacrifice for sin and death that we inherited through Adam had to be a sacrifice of YHWH himself, instead of that what was lost by Adam, namely, a unblemished Human.

 

[Rosenritter]

Twisting the text between "literal and not literal solely dependent on your preconceived notions.
There is no used of "full glory" or "partial glory". God said He would show His "glory", but He would not show his face, or Moses would not live.

Are you even trying to read the passage for comprehension?

Exodus 33:18-23 KJV
(18) And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
(19) And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
(20) And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
(21) And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
(22) And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
(23) And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


Using your "super-literal" means of interpretation, "my face which is also equivalent to "me" but "my hand" and "my back parts" are NOT GOD.

God does not say "you cannot see my face and live" but says "no man can see me and live" but with the strict way you are demanding, "my hand" and "my back parts" are not God, for Moses saw these and lived.

a) If the hand and back parts were NOT GOD, do you believe that these perhaps metaphors for angelic representatives?
b) Since you are being super strict, notice that it does not specify whether Moses saw glory of the LORD all or only an eclipse of that glory, sheltered by his hand.

The most normal reading of this passage includes:

1) The full glory of the LORD can also be called the face of God
2) That God responded with "thou canst not see my face" because he was directly responding to Moses's request, not randomly speaking of unrelated things
3) That Moses was shown something when he was covered with God's hand, when he beheld his back parts, else this demonstration would have had no purpose at all
4) That being covered by God's hand would shelter Moses from at least some of God's glory, but that some would be beheld in that which was seen (this is a slight extrapolation, but hardly a stretch)

You are still attempting to ignore the challenge;

You haven't presented a challenge. You've just been ridiculous.

Then you should have no problem going through ex 33:17-23, and explaining the metaphorical meaning you believe is there. Pay CLOSE attention to explaining how seeing Jehovah/YHVH God's face would have killed Moses.

And your meaning of face is an arrangement of the eyes, nose, and mouth. Especially considering we are just told that Moses spoke with God "face to face, as one would a friend" when the usage of "face" in that phrase has no meaning outside of the literal, I am dumbfounded at how you would attempt to make the literal figurative and force the obviously figurative to be literal.

Please respond accurately to my points;

You have intentionally avoided the "pure speculation"; Here is what I called "pure speculation";

Please explain how you think this is NOT speculation.

It is hardly speculation that people die from sensory overload. It's been done numerous times. It's a proven scientific FACT. One application is called TORTURE.

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, You have not responded to the fact that the Scriptures state that Mary is the mother of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

Show us where Jesus refers to Mary as His 'mother'.

Good luck...

 

[Apple7]

May I ask where you got that definition of Christian?
This is the first time I have heard that definition so I looked it up in multiple lexicons and they all give a similar definition of ' a follower of Christ' No mention of worship.
Which lexicon did you use?

Any good lexicon will provide this definition.

Further, scripture proclaims that Christians worshiped Christ.