John 10:30 – Jesus is The Son of God

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi freelight!

Let us look at this verse again:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12).​

To this verse you say:

This is both the Father and the Son speaking, Jesus being the living word of the Father.

If it is both the Lord Jesus and the Father speaking then wouldn't we read "We come quickly"? The use of the pronoun "I" does not lend itself to your idea since the pronoun "I" in this instance means "the one who is speaking or writing" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary).

Besides that, if both the Lord Jesus and the Father are speaking then why does the Apostle John only acknowledge the Lord Jesus as the One who is coming?:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

In this last address, 'God' claims all 3 titles of 'Alpha and Omega, first and last, beginning and end' as a culmination or completion of divine entitlement.

Yes, God claims all three titles and it is the Lord Jesus who is God and it is Him alone who is speaking.

Or perhaps you want to argue that the Apostle John was in error for thinking that it was only the Lord Jesus who said these words, "I come quickly."

Let us now look at the verses from the first chapter of the Revelation which you quoted from the NASB:

"John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 AND from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev.1:4-5; NASB).​

We know that the Apostle Paul told the Christians to be looking for the appearing of the Lord Jesus (Phil.3:20-21) but I see no evidence that anyone at all was expecting the Father to come to the earth. Therfore, the following translation is the correct one:

"John to the seven churches in Asia: Grace to you, and peace, from the (One) who is, and who was, and who (is) coming, and from the seven spirits which are before His throne; even from Jesus Christ the faithful witness..." (Rev.1:4-5; "Literal Translation," Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, ed. Jay P. Green, Sr.).​

This translation has to be the correct one since the Scriptures will be searchedb in vain for any mention of the Father coming to the earth. Therefore, this passage has to be speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:7-8).​

Verse eight is clearly a "testimony" from someone and that someone is the Lord Jesus:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw" (Rev.1:1-2).

So when we read the Lord Jesus' testimony at Revelation 1:8 we can know for sure that He is the Almighty God.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Jesus is the flesh son, Christ is the spirit son. They became one.

Jesus said--

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

NOT I and by Fathers other son are one.

Truth is starring you in the face friend. God created all through his son, the express image of himself. A spirit being like himself, not a man. Hebrews has that secret to give you. Jesus is the body prepared for Christ to come to Earth. Heb 10. Christ was a spirit that became flesh, John 1.

The word became flesh, NOT a spirit son became flesh.

When Jesus was anointed with Christ God declared that this was his son. Put it together Friend. Jesus is not the son of man, the Christ in him is. For Christ came down from the Father, Jesus was born, not SENT.

Jesus is the son of man.

Jesus was sent--

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

The Christ is the Spirit of the Father Himself--

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

LA







]

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Messed up post

 

[Lazy afternoon]

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw" (Rev.1:1-2).

So when we read the Lord Jesus' testimony at Revelation 1:8 we can know for sure that He is the Almighty God.

Read bolded part.

God gave the Revelation to Jesus Christ.

LA

 

[keypurr]

Jesus said--

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

NOT I and by Fathers other son are one.





The word became flesh, NOT a spirit son became flesh.






Jesus is the son of man.

Jesus was sent--

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

The Christ is the Spirit of the Father Himself--

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

LA







]

Can not all of us be one with the Father?

Jesus was born to Mary, not SENT.

Christ the spirit was sent for he was with God. He is the only one who has seen God for he is the express image of God. He became flesh in Jesus. Only the spirit son is the son of man.

Think about the SPIRITUAL ROCK you mentioned.

Sent from my A622GL using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Can not all of us be one with the Father?

Jesus was born to Mary, not SENT.

Jesus was born then prepared, then indwelt, then sent.

Christ the spirit was sent for he was with God.

Christ the Spirit came of His own accord. He was not sent by anyone.

Jesus the man was sent by God the Spirit.

He is the only one who has seen God for he is the express image of God. He became flesh in Jesus. Only the spirit son is the son of man.

The son of man is a man.

Isa 51:12 I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;


The son of God is a man indwelt by God.

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Ben Masada]

Jesus is the Son of God

Yes, but when he was in life but also as part of Israel aka the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said HaShem. "Let My Son go that he may serve Me." Then, when finally Pharaoh let Israel go, Prophet Hosea wrote many years later, "From Egypt I called My Son." (Hosea 11:1)

 

[marhig]

Yes, but when he was in life but also as part of Israel aka the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said HaShem. "Let My Son go that he may serve Me." Then, when finally Pharaoh let Israel go, Prophet Hosea wrote many years later, "From Egypt I called My Son." (Hosea 11:1)

And who is Israel? Those born a Jew circumcised of the flesh? Or those doing the will of God and circumcised of the heart?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

Please explain to me how the Lord Jesus could have created all things if He did not even exist until He was born of Mary:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

Also, please tell me how it is possible that the Lord Jesus is a created being since He Himself created "all things." Are you willing to argue that He created Himself? It amazes me that you argue that He did not even exist prior to being born of Mary despite the fact that the Apostle Paul says that He was "before all things"!

My understanding of say Genesis 1:26 and Psalm 8 is that Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator. This makes me question your view of Colossians 1:16-18. I have not prepared an explanation of this passage and will defer for the moment.

Next, let us look at a verse which you say that I do not take literally:

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Lk.1:35).​

I take everything here in a literal sense. You probably fail to understand the meaning of the words "Son of God." …. So when it is said that the Lord Jesus is the "son of man" what is being said that His nature is that of man. And when it is said that He is the "son of God" what is being said is that His very nature is that of God.

I believe that in Luke 1:35 Jesus is called the Son of God because God the Father is the father of Jesus, while Mary was his mother.

If Jesus was God at birth and also man, was he immortal or mortal or both, God cannot be tempted but Jesus was tempted, God cannot be seen by man but Jesus was seen, God is omniscient (all-knowing) but Jesus was not omniscient as a baby, as a youth as he developed wisdom, as an adult Mark 13:32, and after he ascended Revelation 1:1.

Let us look at the way that the Unitarians understood the term "son of man" in regard to the Lord Jesus.

"He did not 'toot his own horn,' but instead called himself 'the son of man,' which, in the Aramaic language he spoke, meant 'a man'" (biblicalunitarian.com).​

Since in the Aramaic language the term "son of man" means "man" then we can understand that in the same language the term "son of God" means "God."

I believe that the title “The Son of Man” is first derived from Psalm 8:4 and this literally means the Son of Adam. Jesus was destined to fulfil the role where Adam failed, to rule over the earth.

So I take what is said at Luke 1:35 literally. Now I will await your answer to my questions concerning the pre-existence of the Lord Jesus.

I will defer this aspect as mentioned above.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Rivers]

The Bible says Jesus the man, is the son.

You are wrong to add another son to the Bible.

You are saying that the son of God born through Mary is not the son.

It was not a spirit son which came down to join with Jesus at His baptism, it was The Fathers Holy Spirit Himself, (one person) who Jesus said is the Father.

Are you going to deny what Jesus said--

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Are you going to say then that the Father AND a spirit son came down from Heaven to join with Jesus the son of God.

You are wrong keypurr to open your mind to a spirit which is not of God.

LA

Good point.

There is no evidence of any "spirit son" in scripture.

 

[keypurr]

Jesus was born then prepared, then indwelt, then sent.







Christ the Spirit came of His own accord. He was not sent by anyone.

Jesus the man was sent by God the Spirit.




The son of man is a man.

Isa 51:12 I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;


The son of God is a man indwelt by God.

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I disagree with your findings friend.

Jesus was born as a man

Christ was sent. He needed a body, see Hebrew 10:5.

Only Christ has seen God for he is the express image of the Father.



Sent from my A622GL using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Ben Masada]

And who is Israel? Those born a Jew circumcised of the flesh? Or those doing the will of God and circumcised of the heart?

We are all three you have mentioned above, Bzrat HaShem. 1. Circumcised of the flesh, 2. Circumcised of the heart and 3. Doing the will of God, Baruch HaShem!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe that in Luke 1:35 Jesus is called the Son of God because God the Father is the father of Jesus, while Mary was his mother.

Hi Trevor!

How can the Lord Jesus have just come into existence when He was born of Mary since the Apostle Paul makes it plain that He was "before all things"?:

"And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" (Col.1:17-18).​

There can be no doubt that this is speaking about the Lord Jesus because the pronoun "he" in verse 17 has to be referring to the same "he" who is the Head of The Body, the Church. And we both know that the Lord Jesus is the head of the Body of Christ (Eph.5:23).

There can only be One who is "before all things," and that is God. Therefore, common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus is God!

If Jesus was God at birth and also man, was he immortal or mortal or both, God cannot be tempted but Jesus was tempted, God cannot be seen by man but Jesus was seen, God is omniscient (all-knowing) but Jesus was not omniscient as a baby, as a youth as he developed wisdom, as an adult Mark 13:32, and after he ascended Revelation 1:1.

For some strange reason you expect that even though the Lord Jesus was made in the likeness of man He would nonetheless retain all of the qualities belonging to God:

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Phil.2:5-7).​

Here the Lord Jesus speaks of the glory which He had with the Father before the world even existed:

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (Jn.17:5).​

The main arguments used by the non-trinitarians is a denial of the fact that the Lord Jesus gave up His Godly qualities in order to come to the earth so that He could die on the Cross to redeem men. These people just cannot believe that with God "all things are possible" (Mt.19:26).

I believe that the title “The Son of Man” is first derived from Psalm 8:4 and this literally means the Son of Adam. Jesus was destined to fulfil the role where Adam failed, to rule over the earth.

The Apostle Paul does indeed contrast the two men, saying:

"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly" (1 Cor.15:47-48).​

The Lord Jesus is no ordinary man, as the Scriptures reveal that He is from heaven, meaning that He descended from heaven:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).​

That explains His words in "bold" in the following passage:

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:23-24).​

The Jews who heard Him would know that by those words He was claiming to be God. And the Lord said, those who do not believe that truth will die in their sins. A stern warning for all those out there who continue to deny that the Lord Jesus is God.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[marhig]

We are all three you have mentioned above, Bzrat HaShem. 1. Circumcised of the flesh, 2. Circumcised of the heart and 3. Doing the will of God, Baruch HaShem!

So you reckon that every single person who is of the Jewish religion is living by the will of God? What about those who have turned atheist and those who don't follow the laws? Are their hearts circumcised and doing Gods will, even though they are willfully sinning?

And what about the gentiles as you call them, who are loving God from their heart and obeying him and living by his will denying their flesh?

Which ones belong to God?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is a natural and there is a spiritual, the land that God have Jacob is the natural and the new Jerusalem is the spiritual.

So you admit that when the Scriptures speak of the land which the Lord gave to Jacob the reference is to land which is on this present earth?

 

[freelight]

Additional in-sights......

Additional in-sights......

Hi freelight!

Let us look at this verse again:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12).​

To this verse you say:


If it is both the Lord Jesus and the Father speaking then wouldn't we read "We come quickly"? The use of the pronoun "I" does not lend itself to your idea since the pronoun "I" in this instance means "the one who is speaking or writing" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary).

Besides that, if both the Lord Jesus and the Father are speaking then why does the Apostle John only acknowledge the Lord Jesus as the One who is coming?:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

I just posted my last post as a blog-post, - My dissertation on the Alpha & Omega - if you look at how I highlighted using different colours, I was using yellow for the Father and Pink for the Son (wherever they might be differentiated), - only in their emphasis as to who was speaking. (later all 3 titles were merged as one). We should know that since the Father and the Son are One anyways,...when one speaks the other is speaking as well, since they are in full agreement. However they are still distinct personalities (or personifications of One Deity). Of course Jesus is the physical representative of 'God', the Son of Man and Son of God....but always a SON. - all sons proceed, emenate from One Universal FATHER. Any interpretive level of identification of Jesus in his human and divine aspects will be determined by the context of the passage. In this case, I can hold a Unitarian or Tritarian view of this (even an Arian view among others) and the Father and Son are still ONE, yet also distinction personalities. God is the Sole life, intelligence and power in one and all, doing the works.

Yes, God claims all three titles and it is the Lord Jesus who is God and it is Him alone who is speaking.

Or perhaps you want to argue that the Apostle John was in error for thinking that it was only the Lord Jesus who said these words, "I come quickly."

Let us now look at the verses from the first chapter of the Revelation which you quoted from the NASB:

"John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 AND from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev.1:4-5; NASB).​

We know that the Apostle Paul told the Christians to be looking for the appearing of the Lord Jesus (Phil.3:20-21) but I see no evidence that anyone at all was expecting the Father to come to the earth. Therfore, the following translation is the correct one:

"John to the seven churches in Asia: Grace to you, and peace, from the (One) who is, and who was, and who (is) coming, and from the seven spirits which are before His throne; even from Jesus Christ the faithful witness..." (Rev.1:4-5; "Literal Translation," Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, ed. Jay P. Green, Sr.).​

This translation has to be the correct one since the Scriptures will be searchedb in vain for any mention of the Father coming to the earth. Therefore, this passage has to be speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:7-8).​

Verse eight is clearly a "testimony" from someone and that someone is the Lord Jesus:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw" (Rev.1:1-2).

So when we read the Lord Jesus' testimony at Revelation 1:8 we can know for sure that He is the Almighty God.

The Father makes his appearance and manifests his glory in/thru His Son. True, 'God' Alone is the Alpha & Omega, First and last, Beginning and End...because He is the One who initiates and presides over all dispensations, bringing them forth thru the Agency of his Word. Jesus is 'God' in as much as he embodies, personifies, reveals and represents 'God', being the One sent to perform his will. While he may the firstborn Special and Unique Son of God, note that we also are sons of God who bear the divine image and likeness renewed in us in Christ, so that Jesus is the firstborn among many brethren. God wills to generate and reveal his Son (the Christ) in us too, for this is the mystery revealed to Paul, 'Christ in us, the hope of glory'. So lest we 'objectify' Jesus too much (like a movie screen projecting), lets not forget we are the body of Christ here on earth, his very tabernacle.

~*~*~

Concerning your quote of Revelation 1:4-5 here, which replaces 'and' with 'even' -

"John to the seven churches in Asia: Grace to you, and peace, from the (One) who is, and who was, and who (is) coming, and from the seven spirits which are before His throne; even from Jesus Christ the faithful witness..." (Rev.1:4-5; "Literal Translation," Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, ed. Jay P. Green, Sr.).​

Most all English translations have 'AND from Jesus Christ the faithful the witness,...showing a distinction between the Father who is, who was and who is coming (note as we covered already,..the Father acts in and THRU the Son). Most greek interlinear translations that I've seen online do as well, put 'and' here, since its the greek word 'kai'. Now kai can also mean 'also, even, indeed, but', however....if most translators have rendered it 'and', its more prominent definition,...then why is that? NO English translations render 'kai' as 'even' in the over 50 translations listed at Biblegateway here. - just an observation.

In any case,...there are different ways in interpreting the passages concerned and it still remains that 'God' is the One Power and Presence working thru the Son. There is no 'other', since God is the Sole One That IS. - all else is but many different ways of assuming different nuances and particulars of 'relationship' and how 'God' is appropriating his activities thru the Son (this includes 'us' as the body of Christ),...but its still 'God' and God's Word articulating and accomplishing his will

Actually with this spiritual understanding within a biblical context, and those united with Christ spiritually, there ought be no grounds for divisions since we all drink from One Spirit and hold to the testimony of Jesus who reveals God to us. 'God' is the one essential reality, indivisible. - despite many denominations, sects, branches within the Christ-tradition,....those who worship the Father in spirit and truth, will hold that essential unity, and that is the love-ethic and divine law, the foundation of our life in God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We should know that since the Father and the Son are One anyways,...when one speaks the other is speaking as well, since they are in full agreement.

According to your logic then when a believer speaks then it is God who is speaking because the believer is "one" with God:

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one" (Jn.17:20-22).​

Let us look at this verse again:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12).​

To this verse you say:

This is both the Father and the Son speaking, Jesus being the living word of the Father.

If it is both the Lord Jesus and the Father speaking then wouldn't we read "We come quickly"? The use of the pronoun "I" does not lend itself to your idea since the pronoun "I" in this instance means "the one who is speaking or writing" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary).

Besides that, if both the Lord Jesus and the Father are speaking then why does the Apostle John only acknowledge the Lord Jesus as the One who is coming?:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

Since the Lord Jesus identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, then you must admit that He is God because you said this:

True, 'God' Alone is the Alpha & Omega, First and last, Beginning and End...

You also said:

Of course Jesus is the physical representative of 'God', the Son of Man and Son of God....but always a SON. - all sons proceed, emenate from One Universal FATHER.

I don't think that you know what the term "Son of God" means. Let us look how Paul used the term "son of..." when speaking to a sorcerer named Elymas:

"O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?" (Acts 13:10).​

Of course Paul was not saying that Elymas was a literal son of the devil. Instead, he was saying that the "nature" of Elymas is that of the devil. So when it is said that the Lord Jesus is the "son of man" what is being said is that His nature is that of man. And when it is said that He is the "son of God" what is being said is that His very nature is that of God.

Let us look at the way that the Unitarians understood the term "son of man" in regard to the Lord Jesus. The say:

"He did not 'toot his own horn,' but instead called himself 'the son of man,' which, in the Aramaic language he spoke, meant 'a man'" (biblicalunitarian.com).​

Since in the Aramaic language the term "son of man" means "man" then we can understand that in the same language the term "son of God" means "God."

When the Lord Jesus told the Jews that God was His Father they knew that He was claiming to be God:

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn.5:17-18).​

If this was just a misunderstanding and the Lord Jesus is not equal to God then there can be no doubt that He would have cleared up this misunderstanding and said that He was not claiming to be God. However, what He told them only made it plainer that He was claiming to be God.

First, He told them that He had the same power to raise up the dead as does the Father (v.21). He then said that all judgment has been committed to Him (v.22). Then He told them this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23).​

There can be absolutely no doubt that by those words the Lord Jesus was confirming the Jews' idea that He was making Himself equal to God. And there is no reason at all why He would say those things unless He is God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

How can the Lord Jesus have just come into existence when He was born of Mary since the Apostle Paul makes it plain that He was "before all things"?:

"And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" (Col.1:17-18).​

There can be no doubt that this is speaking about the Lord Jesus because the pronoun "he" in verse 17 has to be referring to the same "he" who is the Head of The Body, the Church. And we both know that the Lord Jesus is the head of the Body of Christ (Eph.5:23).
There can only be One who is "before all things," and that is God. Therefore, common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus is God!

This is speaking of the spiritual creation. He is the firstborn from the dead, and is the head of the body. This is not speaking of the natural creation, but even the natural creation was brought into existence with Jesus in mind, and for his benefit, as he is central to the purpose of God in His Son.

For some strange reason you expect that even though the Lord Jesus was made in the likeness of man He would nonetheless retain all of the qualities belonging to God:

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Phil.2:5-7).​

I have already given my explanation of Philippians 2:5-7. If he has lost all the attributes that make God “God”, then he is no longer God, and only a man. I believe that Jesus is a man, and because God was his father in the conception / birth process, then Jesus is the Son of God Luke 1:35.

Here the Lord Jesus speaks of the glory which He had with the Father before the world even existed:

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (Jn.17:5).​

Jesus had this glory in prospect Psalm 8:5 – notice the prophetic past tense.

The main arguments used by the non-trinitarians is a denial of the fact that the Lord Jesus gave up His Godly qualities in order to come to the earth so that He could die on the Cross to redeem men. These people just cannot believe that with God "all things are possible" (Mt.19:26).

Yes, your suggestion is impossible, but I also reject this suggestion as it is not Scriptural.

The Apostle Paul does indeed contrast the two men, saying:

"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly" (1 Cor.15:47-48).​

The Lord Jesus is no ordinary man, as the Scriptures reveal that He is from heaven, meaning that He descended from heaven:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).​

That explains His words in "bold" in the following passage:

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:23-24).​

The Jews who heard Him would know that by those words He was claiming to be God. And the Lord said, those who do not believe that truth will die in their sins. A stern warning for all those out there who continue to deny that the Lord Jesus is God.

Jesus is indeed from heaven, as the Holy Spirit came upon Mary to conceive. This is how God came down from heaven and was revealed. Jesus is truly the Christ, the Son of Man and the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi Trevor,

In my last post to you I said:

Here the Lord Jesus speaks of the glory which He had with the Father before the world even existed:

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (Jn.17:5).​

To this you said:

Jesus had this glory in prospect Psalm 8:5 – notice the prophetic past tense.

It is impossible that the Lord Jesus had "this glory in prospect," as you say. It is impossible that the phrase "before the world was" can be referring to something in the future. Instead, the Lord Jesus speaks about the glory which He had with the Father before the world was.

That by itself proves that the Lord Jesus existed before He was born of Mary. This verse also proves the same thing:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).​

Despite the fact that this clearly says that the Lord Jesus came down from heaven you say:

Jesus is indeed from heaven, as the Holy Spirit came upon Mary to conceive. This is how God came down from heaven and was revealed.

That is not what is said at John 3:13.

I also said this:

How can the Lord Jesus have just come into existence when He was born of Mary since the Apostle Paul makes it plain that He was "before all things"?:

"And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" (Col.1:17-18).​

Here is your reply:

This is speaking of the spiritual creation. He is the firstborn from the dead, and is the head of the body. This is not speaking of the natural creation...

From the context it is in regard to all creation:

"for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist" (Col.1:16-17).​

By the context it is obvious that when the words "all things" are used it is speaking about the "all things" which have been created through Him. And the "all things" must include all created things in heaven and upon the earth.

Therefore, since the Lord Jesus was "before" these things how is it possible that you can deny that the Lord Jesus existed before He was born of Mary?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

It is impossible that the Lord Jesus had "this glory in prospect," as you say.

If you do not mind, I would like to concentrate on Psalm 8, even though you may suggest that I am avoiding the rest of your post. If we agree on the following then we may make some progress in other aspects.
Psalm 8:3-6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Without fully divulging my view of this Psalm, could you tell me your understanding of the phrase underlined “thou … hast crowned him with glory and honour”. Who is the “him” and when was he crowned with glory and honour?

How can the Lord Jesus have just come into existence when He was born of Mary since the Apostle Paul makes it plain that He was "before all things"?:

I will briefly give some aspects of my view here. Whenever I see the phrase “all things” I immediately think of Psalm 8:6. Do you agree that Colossians 1:17 may be alluding to the “all things” of Psalm 8:6? Now my second suggestion is that these “all things” could well be speaking of the new creation, not the first creation. Now does the word “before” represent before in time or superiority? Either way, if this is the spiritual creation, Jesus is before in time and superiority. Even the next verse seems to be speaking of the spiritual creation:
Colossians 1:18 (KJV): And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence.

By the context it is obvious that when the words "all things" are used it is speaking about the "all things" which have been created through Him. And the "all things" must include all created things in heaven and upon the earth.

Possibly this is your final answer, but even if it is the first creation, could not the word “before” signify before in superiority?

Kind regards
Trevor