Enjoy your vacation, Squeaky. I know, we will enjoy it.
Jews And Gentiles Same Goal
- Thread starter Squeaky
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Enjoy your vacation, Squeaky. I know, we will enjoy it.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Could you quote a Greek expert saying that?
Rosenritter
New member
Yes. Paul of Taursus.
Ephesians 2:5-6 KJV
(5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
(6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
We are not yet raised up, but it is sure and certain that we shall be raised. We are not yet sitting together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, although this is foretold in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
The English equivalent would be like when you might say "the game is won" when the home team leads by 54 points and there are 60 seconds on the clock. The game is not literally won, but it will most certainly be won.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I didn't ask for your interpretation of Paul's words but instead I want you to quote a Greek expert who gives the meaning of the Greek "present" tense which you gave.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yes. Paul of Taursus.
Ephesians 2:5-6 KJV
(5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
(6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
We are not yet raised up, but it is sure and certain that we shall be raised. We are not yet sitting together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, although this is foretold in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
The English equivalent would be like when you might say "the game is won" when the home team leads by 54 points and there are 60 seconds on the clock. The game is not literally won, but it will most certainly be won.
Rosen is again speaking of only the body of flesh instead of man's soul and spirit.
Those in the body of Christ are seated IN HIM right now in heavenly places.
Rosenritter
New member
If Paul isn't expert enough on the Greek for you I don't know who is. The only way you could dispute the application of that statement is to argue that you are sitting in heavenly places RIGHT NOW. I've already heard that nonsense before from Ruckmanites, surely you're a cut above that?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let me get your argument straight. The Baptist knew that the Lord was going to die for our sins at the very beginning of the Lord Jesus' ministry but the Twelve remained ignorant of that fact until shortly before His death. Is that what you are saying?
How did the Baptist know but yet those who were closest to the Lord not know until shortly before the Cross (Lk.18:33-34)?
And you still have not explained how the Twelve could have been preaching a gospel at Luke 9:6 which declares that Christ died for out sins since at that time they were unaware that the Lord was going to die.
Rosenritter
New member
There is a difference between knowing and believing. the disciples were told that Jesus would be killed in Jerusalem... but Peter still fought with a sword, remember?
Besides, you are chasing after the wrong question. The gospel does not need to be fully understood in all its aspects for it to be preached. You keep trying to define the gospel as "knowledge of specific elements" when it is an overreaching message about the salvation of our God.
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Rosenritter
New member
If we could get back to the opening topic question here, is there any disagreement that the Jew and the Gentile both have the same goal, that is, eternal life?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, but that was on the eve of the Cross and shortly before that they didn't even know the Lord Jesus was to die:
"And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken" (Lk.18:34).
Even though they didn't know He was to die you can somehow trick your mind into believeing that earlier the gospel they preached in the following verse was the same one Paul preached which is centered on the death of the Lord Jesus:
"And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where" (Lk.9:6).
Sometimes you need to use a little common sense, Rosenritter!
Rosenritter
New member
The only reason you are still arguing is because you are refusing to define your terms. Yes or no, do the Jew and the Gentile alike both press for eternal life? The gospel (the only gospel) is God's message unto eternal life.
The 'Kingdom Gospel' was preached by Christ and His Disciples during His earthly ministry.' When Paul was met by the Lord Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus, and shortly thereafter, was sent to preach the "Gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24 "But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.")
first to the Jew (the Jews rejected that Gospel) and then, to the Gentiles (Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
Acts 13:46 "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles." Paul was considered to be, The Apostle to the Gentiles. He and his followers were preaching 'The Gospel of the grace of God' and NOT The Kingdom Gospel that Peter and the rest were preaching. Galations 2:7 states: "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;" So, we see by this verse of Scripture, there were TWO different Gospels being preached at that time. Today, 'The Gospel of the grace of God' is preached to both Jew and Gentile alike. There is ONLY one Gospel for today.
first to the Jew (the Jews rejected that Gospel) and then, to the Gentiles (Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
Acts 13:46 "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles." Paul was considered to be, The Apostle to the Gentiles. He and his followers were preaching 'The Gospel of the grace of God' and NOT The Kingdom Gospel that Peter and the rest were preaching. Galations 2:7 states: "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;" So, we see by this verse of Scripture, there were TWO different Gospels being preached at that time. Today, 'The Gospel of the grace of God' is preached to both Jew and Gentile alike. There is ONLY one Gospel for today.
Rosenritter
New member
The gospel of the coming Kingdom of God is the gospel of salvation and grace.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Again, the Greek word translated "gospel" means "good news."
The "good news" that was first preached to the Jews is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And those who believed that truth were born again the moment when they believed it (Jn.20:30-31; 1 Jn.5:1-5).
That cannot possibly be the same gospel or "good news" which Paul speaks of here:
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).
Some were saved by believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Some are saved by believing that Christ died for our sins and He rose from the dead.
That can only mean that there were two separate and distinct instances of the "good news" of Christ. And the existence of two instances of the "good news" of Christ means two separate and distinct gospels. Both result in eternal life for those who believe.
Rosenritter
New member
The gospel was preached by the means of proclaiming that Jesus was the Christ and Son of God. The gospel is much more than simply that, it also includes the resulting conclusions and implications.
As for your interpretation of "born again the moment they believed it" the passage doesn't actually say that. Belief is more than an instantaneous flash, and the apostle's use of "born again" is figurative and points to the future literal fulfillment of being born again of Spirit as spoken of by Christ. Christ's version including moving to and fro like the wind, unseen. Unless you want to say there are two different types of "born again" is Christ's literal meaning and the other is the figurative reference to that event.
Belief of one naturally leads to the other, and vice versa. You cannot possess the "tails" of a coin and also dispute the "heads." If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, you must also believe his words, which include that he died from our sins and rose from the dead. If you believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead, you also recognize that he is sanctioned by God, and therefore must trust his words that he is the Messiah and the Son of God. These are inseparable concepts.
Same gospel, same means, same result. Many aspects and many facets, different approaches based on what one has seen and already known. We are all one in Christ.
Rosenritter
New member
I just post this as a demonstration that Moses is said to have had faith in Christ... yet this is quite some time before that was officially preached. Thought it might contribute to the ongoing exchange.
Heb 11:24-26 KJV
(24) By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
(25) Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
(26) Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Heb 11:24-26 KJV
(24) By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
(25) Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
(26) Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you deny that the "good news" of Christ saves those who believe it?
And the "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, saves those who believe that good news (Jn.20:30-31). Since that good news (gospel) saves then it cannot be denied that good news by itself is a gospel.
And it is not the other good news which saves and which declares that the Lord Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead.
This can only mean that during the Acts period two different gospels which result in salvation were preached.
These facts are not complicated but for some reason they are above your understanding.
Rosenritter
New member
Change the "is a" to simply "is the" as in "that good news by itself is the gospel."
If have good news that you can get a free lunch that good news does not save. But the good news that the Lord Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead is both good news and the message of saves unto salvation.
I don't understand how you can view these as distinct and divorced from each other.
Your logic fails above. It would seem that you do not understand what it means that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead. May we focus on that aspect of the gospel now instead, and you can explain why you believe that gospel is not unto salvation and the saving of our souls?
Right Divider
Body part
And YET the twelve preached the gospel of the kingdom without ANY KNOWLEDGE about the Lord's dying for their sins.
Luk 18:31-34 KJV Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (33) And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
It clearly states that they understood NONE of these things and that it was HID FROM THEM.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you deny that a person was saved by believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Jn.20:30-31; Jn.20:30-31)?
Do you deny that people are saved by believing that the Lord Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead (1 Cor.15:1-5)?
If you deny neither then you should be able to understand that people were saved upon believing one gospel or the other so they are not the same gospel.
According to your ideas a person can be saved by believing only one "aspect" of the gospel. But according to Paul believing the whole gospel saves (Ro.1:16) and there is no evidence that anyone can be saved by believing only one aspect of the gospel.
Also, I never said that the gospel concerning the Lord's death on the Cross is not unto salvation of souls. I challenge you to quote me ever saying that.