JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[daqq]

Is YHWH not God? Be very careful how you answer that question.

If YHWH is God, then if A = B and B = C, then A = C.

If YHWH = God and YHWH = Only Savior, then GOD = Only Savior.

See how that works?

If there is only one Savior, and that's YHWH, then why is the Son called the Savior?

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. - 1 John 4:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John4:14&version=NKJV

A = B, B = C, then A = C.

If there is only one Savior, and that is God, and Jesus is our Savior, then that means that Jesus is God.

Oookay then...

There are various Saviors and Deliverers throughout the history of Israel and the scripture; and there are likewise various ways in which the word Elohim, (God), is used throughout the scripture. You are just playing a shell game. Was Moses also an Elohim-God? Be very careful how you answer that question. Are Elohim-Judges also God? Be very careful how you answer that question. Are Elohim-Angels also God? Be very careful how you answer that question. Was Othniel the son of Kenaz a Moshia-Savior-Deliverer? Be very careful how you answer that question. Was Ehud the son of Gera a Moshia-Savior-Deliverer? Be very careful how you answer that question. Was Jehoahaz a Moshia-Savior-Deliverer? Be very careful how you answer that question. And all these things are written in the scripture; and yet I have not even mentioned the Name of the Father.

Oookay then . . . :chuckle:

 

[daqq]

Judges 3:9 - Othniel the son of Kenaz - "Moshia"
Judges 3:15 - Ehud the son of Gera - "Moshia"
2 Kings 13:5 - Jehoahaz the son of Jehu - "Moshia"

Exodus 7:1 - Moses = Elohim (to Pharaoh)
Exodus 21:6 - Elohim = Judges
Exodus 22:8 - Elohim = Judges
Exodus 22:9a - Elohim = Judges
Exodus 22:9b - Elohim = the Judge
Psalm 8:5 (Heb 2:7-9) - Elohim = Angels (in some translations)
Psalm 8:5 (Heb 2:7-9) - Elohim = God (in some translations (Psa 8:5 ASV))
Psalm 97:7 - Elohim = Angels (LXX)
Psalm 138:1 - Elohim = Angels (LXX)
Psalm 82:6-7 (John 10:34-35) - Elohim = Sons of the Most High
Sons of the Most High = Those to whom the Logos of Elohim has come (John 10:35)

Oookay, alrighty then . . .

 

[keypurr]

It can be, of course, and for those who want it to be "more than believing in the Resurrection," then I personally recommend exclusively, to sit at the feet of the popes and learn from them, learn the One Christian faith (Ephesians 4:5 KJV) from the one supreme pastorship of the One Church of Jesus Christ. The Resurrection is the "crowning truth" and "central truth" of the One Christian faith.

But being a Christian is not, and is never, less than believing the Resurrection. And, I don't know how old you are, but the older you get, the less you value your own life, because of your health. You're not as young or strong or flexible or unwrinkled, you're more tired and weak and frail and error-prone. You're worth less, because you're closer to worthless, which is dead, which is nothing.

Unless the Resurrection.

Why would I sit at the feet of Satan's representive?
The Pope does not sit in the place of Christ.
Beware of wolves in sheep clothing.

There is more to being a Christian than believing in the resurrection.


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[keypurr]

Really? Did you READ them???


:nono: Colossians 1:16-18 with Psalm 33:6; 121:2


Isn't it ODD, that Jews who become Christians, are all Trinitarian???
You'd think the ones able to read Hebrew would know better and they'd become Unit-Arian... :think: :nono:


Just say "Man." It'll be quicker to your denial. Man is a creature.
"Without" controversy, God became a man. 1 Timothy 3:16 John 1:1;14 Philippians 2:6 1 Corinthians 15:47 Romans 9:5 (Messiah is God! EXACTLY what this thread says He isn't :doh: ) Acts 20:28 Dismiss them/ignore them/rewrite them to your own detriment.
Romans 9:5 Yes He is.
You have to be careful, because you aren't being as ungracious as it appears. You said you believe in the "Word" pre-existent. Simply saying "Jesus" will have many Trinitarians thinking you are insane and not because of your belief on this as much as poor communication. You do NOT believe the Word was mere flesh/man and that he died but flesh/man. If you do, now is the point to declare it. It is because of poor explanation that many are against you. I 'think' I know what you mean and do not mean, but others will be greatly offended and needlessly, simply because I think you've been careless and need to be more exacting in the future. People will flat out call you a heretic for this little portion of badly worded sentence, and rightly so, you need to be careful.
Asserting is "stating an opinion with nothing to back it up but one's weightless hopes and disheveled strands, that can never be offered up for anything but empty vibrato."

Yep, not singled out against the backdrop of His deity, however. :nono:


That's why I keep spoon feeding it back into your mouth. You are cantankerous. Perhaps you'll listen to a Christian Jew, where you wouldn't listen to me. Gotquestions.org says clearly that Jesus claimed to be God. Sadly, you never read what others think, just what you, and those like you think.

Your trying to twist God's words to fit your traditional theology Lon. Now your getting to be like Trump by stating facts that do not exist. Scripture is clear that the Son is a creation. But you build a wall around your mind to protect it from truth. It matters not to me how many Jews become Trins. My only concern is sharing the truth as it was given to me by a higher power. No one has a full understanding of our creator, but some of us are blessed with a spiritual guidance into some of the person of God. Some of us are set aside with this feeling of faith from within. As I have stated before, he who is in me is stronger than he who is in the world. I look forward to the day he calls my number to join him and his son in a better world.

My thoughts come from many churches, many cultures and many folks like yourself. I see what others believe in, I was with them for many years. I can never go back for the foundation of the churches is crumbling under the heavy weight of truth.


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[JudgeRightly]

There are various Saviors and Deliverers throughout the history of Israel and the scripture; and there are likewise various ways in which the word Elohim, (God), is used throughout the scripture. You are just playing a shell game. Was Moses also an Elohim-God? Be very careful how you answer that question. Are Elohim-Judges also God? Be very careful how you answer that question. Are Elohim-Angels also God? Be very careful how you answer that question. Was Othniel the son of Kenaz a Moshia-Savior-Deliverer? Be very careful how you answer that question. Was Ehud the son of Gera a Moshia-Savior-Deliverer? Be very careful how you answer that question. Was Jehoahaz a Moshia-Savior-Deliverer? Be very careful how you answer that question. And all these things are written in the scripture; and yet I have not even mentioned the Name of the Father.

Oookay then . . . :chuckle:

Daqq, can we agree that when talking about God and Jesus, being our Savior, that we're talking about eternal salvation, and not savior like saving someone from drowning or being conquered in battle?

Your trying to twist God's words to fit your traditional theology Lon.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he's trying to fit his theology to Scripture, and you're the one trying to fit Scripture to your theology.

Now your getting to be like Trump by stating facts that do not exist. Scripture is clear that the Son is a creation.

The Bible does not say that the Son is a "creation". If "all things" were created through Him, and if He is a creation, then then He would have created Himself, which is a logical contradiction, for in order to create, one must first exist, and you cannot create yourself if you do not first exist.

But you build a wall around your mind to protect it from truth.

Says the one who refuses to listen to what scripture says.

It matters not to me how many Jews become Trins. My only concern is sharing the truth as it was given to me by a higher power. No one has a full understanding of our creator,

No one here has made that claim...?

but some of us are blessed with a spiritual guidance into some of the person of God. Some of us are set aside with this feeling of faith from within.

"Feeling of faith"?

As I have stated before, he who is in me is stronger than he who is in the world. I look forward to the day he calls my number to join him and his son in a better world.

My thoughts come from many churches, many cultures and many folks like yourself.

Keypurr, don't you think it would be better if your thoughts only came from God and His word?

I see what others believe in, I was with them for many years. I can never go back for the foundation of the churches is crumbling under the heavy weight of truth.

The church is crumbling, but it's not because of truth. It's crumbling because of the lies that have been perpetuated throughout it.

The truth makes the church stronger, not weaker, so there's one problem with your argument.

 

[daqq]

Daqq, can we agree that when talking about God and Jesus, being our Savior, that we're talking about eternal salvation, and not savior like saving someone from drowning or being conquered in battle?

When it comes to definitions of words, and their common usages in the scripture, what you are asking for is called "special pleading" and is exactly how most here have ended up where they are. It is like saying "I am" means "God Almighty" whenever Jesus uses that phrase; but if anyone else uses that same phrase in the scripture it is just to be understood as the common usage in every-day language. You might as well follow Nihilo and go sit at the feet of his Pope because that is also one of the big reasons why the churches are imploding from within and emptying out. The shepherds have not only been fleecing the flock for far too long but they also abandoned the flock for their own greener pastures long ago: they do not care about knowing God or His Word and it shows in what they feed the poor flock, (if they get fed at all). Special pleading may be acceptable for you but I thank Elohim that He has set me free from such nonsense. I have no need to do any such thing to understand the scripture because the old man dogmas, which were blinding me from seeing, hearing, and understanding the scripture, were jettisoned long ago,(and it hurt too; it was very painful to realize how badly I had deceived myself, and how badly I had also been lied to over twenty+ years of my life).

PS ~ As for the story I offered you do not appear to have a clue what it means. It is okay for children to think in such a manner because they do not know any better. It is not okay for adults to think in such a manner but they do, day in and day out, for they worship the Arm of YHWH instead of YHWH Himself. And to whom has the Arm of YHWH been revealed? Certainly not to the one who makes the Arm into the God and replaces the Father with His Arm or Right Hand.

 

[Nihilo]

Why would I sit at the feet of Satan's representive?
The Pope does not sit in the place of Christ.
Beware of wolves in sheep clothing.

Crazy conspiracy theorist.

There is more to being a Christian than believing in the resurrection.

I already answered this you crazy conspiracy theorist.

 

[Lon]

Your trying to twist God's words to fit your traditional theology Lon. Now your getting to be like Trump by stating facts that do not exist. Scripture is clear that the Son is a creation. But you build a wall around your mind to protect it from truth. It matters not to me how many Jews become Trins. My only concern is sharing the truth as it was given to me by a higher power. No one has a full understanding of our creator, but some of us are blessed with a spiritual guidance into some of the person of God. Some of us are set aside with this feeling of faith from within. As I have stated before, he who is in me is stronger than he who is in the world. I look forward to the day he calls my number to join him and his son in a better world.

My thoughts come from many churches, many cultures and many folks like yourself. I see what others believe in, I was with them for many years. I can never go back for the foundation of the churches is crumbling under the heavy weight of truth.


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You're twisting God's words to fit your man-made theology Keypurr. Now you're getting to be like other cults by stating facts that do not exist. I always state facts I can back up with scripture or other means. Always. I don't bluff. Scripture is clear that the Son is THE Creator. But you build a wall around your mind to protect it from truth. Colossians 1:16-18 It matters to me how many Jews become Trinitarian, because they DON'T become Unitarian :nono: They don't become Modalists either. :nono: And who would know Hebrew better than one who reads it? My concern is sharing the truth that I studied, prayed, and sought God for. No one has a full understanding of our Creator, but some of us are blessed with an ability to study, to show ourselves approved workman of God, whom He also guides, because we are filled with His Spirit and new-creations, rightly dividing the word of God. 2 Timothy 2:15 Others plead special knowledge as if they are especially close to God, lain: with most of them falling far short. Some of you oddly think you are set aside with this feeling of faith from within, denied others, like Mormons who plead 'follow the burning in your bosom" which is hedonism, being ruled by emotion and whim. True worshippers MUST worship Him in Spirit AND Truth. You've bastardized your religion. As I have stated before, He who is, is stronger than he who is in the world. We reap what we sow, in our pride and arrogance, or what is rendered to Him, and for Him.

My thoughts come from Scripture, one culture, the Church. Not pagans. I am not unequally yoked with unbelievers. I am in the world, but not of it. As a believer, on the narrow road, I am not interested in what others think about God. I take my cues and truth from Him, His Church, His Word, His Spirit. I see what others believe in, and unless it matches up with scripture, they are wrong. I cannot be what scripture does not allow. Isaiah makes a lot of things clear. John makes a lot of things clear. Because I read scriptures, God is better able to mold me, because I am faithful to His Word. There is nothing magic, no burning in the bosom. God plants Himself in the life of one of His own. They cannot undo what He has done, and He ensures that they persevere and then walk by Faith, not by sight or a 'burning in the bosom.' God has His way. We are made and molded by Him Ephesians 2:10 The Church CANNOT fail. The gates of Hell cannot stand against it. In fact, it is growing, still, despite the lack-luster observation of unbelievers or other misguided. If the road is narrow, it is narrow, not so much by numbers, but because walking with the Lord Jesus Christ means denying self, as creations made to follow Him alone. He is the Only Way. No one comes to the Father, but through Him. HE is the narrow gate. Matthew 7:13 Your cult lied to you from their own ignorance. -Lon

 

[Lon]

Don't forget,..what is 'begotten' has a beginning in time.

No scriptures, Freelight. I realize this is the religion section, but without scriptures, it is just opinions and thoughts by any random guy on the internet.
The rest of us are discussing what is life to us. As long as the 66 books are not your source, there is no moral compass in any discussion with you. For you, there are no Absolutes. Every and Any discussion with a believer, must ultimately,necessarily backtrack to scriptures and what you do with them. There is no other discussion to be had on TOL, unless you want to post in politics or other. I don't think you realize that 'moonbeam' to us, means 'never take seriously and rarely read.' Anyone who eschews scripture may give you a listen, those are your only audience.

 

[Nihilo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Catholics

 

[freelight]

No scriptures, Freelight. I realize this is the religion section, but without scriptures, it is just opinions and thoughts by any random guy on the internet.
The rest of us are discussing what is life to us. As long as the 66 books are not your source, there is no moral compass in any discussion with you. For you, there are no Absolutes. Every and Any discussion with a believer, must ultimately,necessarily backtrack to scriptures and what you do with them. There is no other discussion to be had on TOL, unless you want to post in politics or other. I don't think you realize that 'moonbeam' to us, means 'never take seriously and rarely read.' Anyone who eschews scripture may give you a listen, those are your only audience.

What I share is definitely on point and on topic, dealing directly with the implications, definitions and contextual relations of what is being proposed. My commentary includes scripture and the whole of knowledge related to the field we are attending, plus all the historical complications and doctrinal problems assumed in the Arian Controversy. 'Begotten' implies a time when one is 'generated' or 'born' (birthed)...so if one is begotten in any way, that event infers a point or beginning. This is common sense, you don't need a 'scripture' for it. But if you are so big on having a 'chapter and verse' for everything, then SHOW where in 'scripture' that the term 'begotten' DOES NOT imply what it means, and that a 'Son' can be somehow 'eternally begotten', ...be in a state of 'begottenness' that is eternal in nature. Chapter and verse?

 

[Lon]

What I share is...

:nono: It doesn't matter what it is, Freelight. Sorry, ain't gonna work. I looked for scriptures, saw none, truncated and here we are. There is no desire, Freelight. Unless it is scripture, none of us care. Keypurr said he was interested in extra-biblical sources, maybe talk to him. I'm not and never will be interested. It is trying to take advice from the world. We are not to be unequally yoked and I'm not disobedient. It is nothing intentionally personal. -Lon

 

[freelight]

For you, there are no Absolutes.

Where did I say there are no absolutes? Ever? There is One Absolute Reality that is 'Deity'....call it 'God' if you please. All else is relative. - all descriptions, concepts, ideas, opinions, belief-constructs and systems are RELATIVE. Problems arise when you assume that a 'relativity-concept' or 'religious belief' is ABSOLUTE. - this includes the belief that Jesus is YHWH. - its a belief.

 

[freelight]

:nono: It doesn't matter what it is, Freelight. Sorry, ain't gonna work. I looked for scriptures, saw none, truncated and here we are. There is no desire, Freelight. Unless it is scripture, none of us care. Keypurr said he was interested in extra-biblical sources, maybe talk to him. I'm not and never will be interested. It is trying to take advice from the world. We are not to be unequally yoked and I'm not disobedient. It is nothing intentionally personal. -Lon

Good for you,...that's your limitation and restricting yourself, I will still share and engage the discussion on points I believe are pertinent to this particular discussion. Thank you. You are free to put me on ignore if you like

 

[Lon]

Where did I say there are no absolutes? Ever? There is One Absolute Reality that is 'Deity'....call it 'God' if you please. All else is relative. - all descriptions, concepts, ideas, opinions, belief-constructs and systems are RELATIVE. Problems arise when you assume that a 'relativity-concept' or 'religious belief' is ABSOLUTE. - this includes the belief that Jesus is YHWH. - its a belief.

Er, no. This is the point. Again, there is no point, no meeting of minds, Freelight. Again, I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, there is no commonality. Even our Absolutes are different (as if that were possible). We from two very different places as far as truth is concerned and the two disallow meaningful dialogue.

 

[Bright Raven]

Nope, you shy away from truth.

Truth;

1 John 1:1-2 King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

 

[keypurr]

Daqq, can we agree that when talking about God and Jesus, being our Savior, that we're talking about eternal salvation, and not savior like saving someone from drowning or being conquered in battle?



Actually, I'm pretty sure he's trying to fit his theology to Scripture, and you're the one trying to fit Scripture to your theology.



The Bible does not say that the Son is a "creation". If "all things" were created through Him, and if He is a creation, then then He would have created Himself, which is a logical contradiction, for in order to create, one must first exist, and you cannot create yourself if you do not first exist.



Says the one who refuses to listen to what scripture says.



No one here has made that claim...?



"Feeling of faith"?



Keypurr, don't you think it would be better if your thoughts only came from God and His word?



The church is crumbling, but it's not because of truth. It's crumbling because of the lies that have been perpetuated throughout it.

The truth makes the church stronger, not weaker, so there's one problem with your argument.

So you disagree with the scriptures that say the son is the express image of God. ALL IMAGES ARE CREATIONS friend. The Son is firstborn of ALL CREATURES. But you can just discard that from the Bible.

My thoughts came from above JR. I was not smart enough to see it on my own. It took over sixty years of study to see and understand Heb 1.

The truth is destroying the church from within. The distortions taught by the forefathers has been expossed.


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[keypurr]

Truth;

1 John 1:1-2 King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

How does that conflict with my thoughts?

God was made known through his logos which was dwelling in Jesus.


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[keypurr]

You're twisting God's words to fit your man-made theology Keypurr. Now you're getting to be like other cults by stating facts that do not exist. I always state facts I can back up with scripture or other means. Always. I don't bluff. Scripture is clear that the Son is THE Creator. But you build a wall around your mind to protect it from truth. Colossians 1:16-18 It matters to me how many Jews become Trinitarian, because they DON'T become Unitarian :nono: They don't become Modalists either. :nono: And who would know Hebrew better than one who reads it? My concern is sharing the truth that I studied, prayed, and sought God for. No one has a full understanding of our Creator, but some of us are blessed with an ability to study, to show ourselves approved workman of God, whom He also guides, because we are filled with His Spirit and new-creations, rightly dividing the word of God. 2 Timothy 2:15 Others plead special knowledge as if they are especially close to God, lain: with most of them falling far short. Some of you oddly think you are set aside with this feeling of faith from within, denied others, like Mormons who plead 'follow the burning in your bosom" which is hedonism, being ruled by emotion and whim. True worshippers MUST worship Him in Spirit AND Truth. You've bastardized your religion. As I have stated before, He who is, is stronger than he who is in the world. We reap what we sow, in our pride and arrogance, or what is rendered to Him, and for Him.

My thoughts come from Scripture, one culture, the Church. Not pagans. I am not unequally yoked with unbelievers. I am in the world, but not of it. As a believer, on the narrow road, I am not interested in what others think about God. I take my cues and truth from Him, His Church, His Word, His Spirit. I see what others believe in, and unless it matches up with scripture, they are wrong. I cannot be what scripture does not allow. Isaiah makes a lot of things clear. John makes a lot of things clear. Because I read scriptures, God is better able to mold me, because I am faithful to His Word. There is nothing magic, no burning in the bosom. God plants Himself in the life of one of His own. They cannot undo what He has done, and He ensures that they persevere and then walk by Faith, not by sight or a 'burning in the bosom.' God has His way. We are made and molded by Him Ephesians 2:10 The Church CANNOT fail. The gates of Hell cannot stand against it. In fact, it is growing, still, despite the lack-luster observation of unbelievers or other misguided. If the road is narrow, it is narrow, not so much by numbers, but because walking with the Lord Jesus Christ means denying self, as creations made to follow Him alone. He is the Only Way. No one comes to the Father, but through Him. HE is the narrow gate. Matthew 7:13 Your cult lied to you from their own ignorance. -Lon

Who is the creator?

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

by whom also he made the worlds,

God created all through his son. His son is the first creation.


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[Bright Raven]

How does that conflict with my thoughts?

God was made known through his logos which was dwelling in Jesus.


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It shows you that Jesus is eternal.