Trump Gurl
Credo in Unum Deum
474 pages? No. lol
Denying that Jesus is God is nothing new. I learned that in online classes I have taken. "Arianism, a heresy which arose in the fourth century, and denied the Divinity of Jesus Christ."
Jesus is God
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
474 pages? No. lol
Denying that Jesus is God is nothing new. I learned that in online classes I have taken. "Arianism, a heresy which arose in the fourth century, and denied the Divinity of Jesus Christ."
Greetings Trump Gurl,
Your waving the banner endorsing the Trinity view of John 1:1 is similar to your forum title and avatar, where almost mindless supporters wave a banner in support of Trump or some other politician, when the politician proclaims some idea that he may or may not fulfil when he comes to office. God rules in the Kingdoms of men and HE gives them to whomsoever HE wills. He raises up good and bad leaders to accomplish HIS purpose at a particular time, such as Nebuchadnezzar who was given the task to destroy Jerusalem and preserve a remnant of the Jews..
Kind regards
Trevor
I believe that the WORD in John 1:1,14 is a personification similar to the wise woman WISDOM in Proverbs 8 who was with the One God, Yahweh, God the Father in the creation. I believe that Jesus was the Son of God, begotten of the Father John 1:14, Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35.
Your waving the banner endorsing the Trinity view of John 1:1 is similar to your forum title and avatar, where almost mindless supporters wave a banner in support of Trump or some other politician, when the politician proclaims some idea that he may or may not fulfil when he comes to office. God rules in the Kingdoms of men and HE gives them to whomsoever HE wills. He raises up good and bad leaders to accomplish HIS purpose at a particular time, such as Nebuchadnezzar who was given the task to destroy Jerusalem and preserve a remnant of the Jews..
Kind regards
Trevor
7djengo7
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In other words, you, the same as NWL, are refusing to even try to answer the question I asked NWL:
Instead of trying to answer the question I asked (because you know, as I know, that you can't make such an attempt without further embarrassing yourself in your anti-Christ heresy), you have now tried to distract attention away from your failure by spinning out more stupidity in the form of more extra-Biblical nonsense:
- "Lord of the circumstances...."
- "a king over these circumstances"
- "Lord of all that was happening"
In John 10:17-18, we read Jesus saying:
| Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.No one [οὐδεὶς] taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. |
- According to Jesus, it was Jesus Who laid down His own life; it was not the Father Who laid down Jesus' life--the Father did not take Jesus' life from Jesus.
- According to Jesus, it was Jesus Who had power to lay down Jesus' own life.
- According to Jesus, it was Jesus Who had power to take His life again.
You wrote this phrase: "His Master, King, Lord". We find Jesus, numerous times, referring to someone as "my Father", and as "my Father in heaven". Please list all the passages in Scripture wherein you would allege that Jesus is referring to someone as
- "my Master"
- "my King"
- "my Lord"
7djengo7
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What (if anything) do you hope to achieve by saying that? We, being Trinitarians, do not even, in the first place, assume, with anti-Christs such as yourself, that personification is occurring in Proverbs 8, let alone in John 1. Wholly motivated by your heretical, anti-Christ, extra-Biblical assumption of the false doctrine of unitarianism, you are merely assuming that personification is occurring in Proverbs 8; and therein are you assuming falsehood.
Why do you deny that YHWH is wisdom? By saying that something that is not a person is, in Proverbs 8, being called "wisdom", and that it is, in Proverbs 8, being personified, you are even denying that God the Father, Himself, is wisdom.....unless you're even so much a heretic as to be willing to deny that God the Father is a person.
Greetings again 7djengo7,
Kind regards
Trevor
Even in this final statement in your latest Post you do not seem to admit that there is an obvious connection between Psalm 8:1-3 and Matthew 11:25-30. If we were playing baseball, even if I was on the opposite team, with you as the batsman and I was pitching, I tried to get you to the first base with Psalm 110:1 and its NT expositions, then to the second base with Psalm 8:1-3 and its associated passage Matthew 11:25-30, and finally to the third base with Adonai Yahweh in Isaiah 50:4-9, but you seem to play a different game.
Kind regards
Trevor
7djengo7
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Here's an obvious connection between Psalm 8:1-3, Matthew 11:25-30: both are God-breathed passages of Scripture, and both are composed of words and syntax. In your confused, muddled posts to me, however, you've not been presenting anything even remotely appearing to be a connection between those two passages of Scripture. Rather, you've been presenting nothing but a tissue of nonsense and falsehood, in your attempt at evasion of the truth.
And still, you refuse to fess up to the obvious fact that you have been lying by your saying that, in Matthew 11:25-26, Jesus was (to use your own word) "quoting" Psalm 8:1-3, when it is patently obvious that Jesus was doing no such quoting as you allege in your lie.
Why do you have to act like a clown? Though, at least you admit that you are trying to play a game on TOL. I, for one, refuse to play any games on TOL, which is why I do not play along with the game you are trying to play.
I wrote somewhat more in my post, #7103, than the little slice of it that you have just now quoted, and reacted to (and completely failed to deal with (in your post, #7105)):
For instance, you've not yet produced a single example from the Bible wherein you imagine that Jesus is referring to someone as "my Master", as "my King", or as "my Lord". I've requested you to do so. Why can't you do so?
Do you really imagine nobody can see your dismal failure to even begin to deal with any of the questions and objections that I, in post #7103 (as elsewhere), have leveled against your anti-Biblical stupidities?
Greetings again 7djengo7,
Proverbs 8:1–5 (KJV): 1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Proverbs 8:15–18 (KJV): 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
Proverbs 8:22–31 (KJV): 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now how do you read John 1:1-3?
John 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Let me guess:
“In the beginning was the Word” In the beginning was God the Son, the Second person of the Deity, the pre-incarnate Jesus. (But John 1:1 does not say this – it introduces “the Word”).
“the Word was with God” God the Son was with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. (But it does not say this – it says that the Word is with God).
“and the Word was God” The Word was God the Son. (But it does not say this – it says the Word was God, not the third person of the Trinity).
“The same was in the beginning with God” God the Son was with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. (But it does not say this – it says the Word was with God in the beginning).
Kind regards
Trevor
Wisdom is depicted as a separate entity, a Wise Woman who was with YHWH when He created the earth.
Proverbs 8:1–5 (KJV): 1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Proverbs 8:15–18 (KJV): 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
Proverbs 8:22–31 (KJV): 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now how do you read John 1:1-3?
John 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Let me guess:
“In the beginning was the Word” In the beginning was God the Son, the Second person of the Deity, the pre-incarnate Jesus. (But John 1:1 does not say this – it introduces “the Word”).
“the Word was with God” God the Son was with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. (But it does not say this – it says that the Word is with God).
“and the Word was God” The Word was God the Son. (But it does not say this – it says the Word was God, not the third person of the Trinity).
“The same was in the beginning with God” God the Son was with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. (But it does not say this – it says the Word was with God in the beginning).
Kind regards
Trevor
7djengo7
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- What (if anything) do you mean by "separate", here?
- What (if anything) do you mean by "entity", here?
"it says the Word was God"
Which is what I believe, and what you deny. By your denial that the Word was a person, you are denying that the Word was God. Unless, of course, in addition to your heretical, anti-Christ penchant for denying that God is three persons, you would like to say that God is not even so much as one, single, solitary person, alone.
Greetings again 7djengo7,
When is YHWH addressed as “she” and “her”? When did YHWH stand in the top of the high places, when did she cry at the gates? In what way was Wisdom with Yahweh in the creation Proverbs 8:22-31?
Kind regards
Trevor
Proverbs 8:1–5 (KJV): 1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
When is YHWH addressed as “she” and “her”? When did YHWH stand in the top of the high places, when did she cry at the gates? In what way was Wisdom with Yahweh in the creation Proverbs 8:22-31?
God is love and love is God, but that does not make love a person.
I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
God's Truth
New member
Of course I would like to convince someone of my beliefs, but so what how many pages long this thread is? Iron sharpens iron, and people here love talking about the one they love.
Why are you here talking at all about anything, since it was talked about many times before? Don't knock conversion.
I would like to challenge you to your trinity doctrine.
God's Truth
New member
God's Truth
New member
:nono: Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not the Father
7djengo7
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When is anyone, period, addressed as "she" and "her"? Answer: Absolutely never (save, perhaps, by insane persons who cannot distinguish between grammatical third person and grammatical second person). Neither in Proverbs 8, nor in the rest of the Bible, nor even out of the Bible. Apparently you do not understand the nature of addressing. Here are some instances, in Proverbs 8, of some person(s) being addressed as such and such:
- v. 4: The addressor (namely, Wisdom) is addressing the addressees as "you", and as "men": Unto you, O men
- v. 5: The addressor (namely, Wisdom) is addressing the addressees as "ye simple", as "ye fools", and as "ye": O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart
- v. 32: The addressor (namely, Wisdom) is addressing the addressees as "ye children": Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children
However, according to your anti-Christ viewpoint regarding Proverbs 8--the falsehood you assert when you assert that no person, therein, is being referred to as "Wisdom", and that, instead, some non-person is being referred to as "Wisdom"--according to your viewpoint, Wisdom is not addressing anyone. You therein flat out contradict the Bible. Solomon states that Wisdom is addressing addressees; but you, by denying that Wisdom is a person, are stating, contra-Solomon, that Wisdom is not addressing anyone. If you would like to assert that something that is not a person can/does address someone, you would be, in so asserting, manifesting that you are non compos mentis, and that you have nothing meaningful to contribute to any theological discussion. All addressors are persons, as are all addressees. Whatever is not a person is not an addressor, nor an addressee. But, you deny that the Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs 8 is a person; thus, you deny--against the Bible--that the Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs 8 can address/is addressing anyone.
Whatever cries (Proverbs 8:1,3), puts forth a voice (v. 1), speaks (v. 6), gives instruction (v. 10), hates (v. 13), loves (v. 17), rejoices (v. 30), delights in things (v. 31), can be sinned against (v. 36)--whatever does, or can do, any of these things, is a person. No non-person does, or can do, any of these things. So, by asserting that the Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs 8 is not a person, you are asserting--in contradiction to the Bible--that the Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs 8 does not cry, does not put forth a voice, does not speak, does not give instruction, does not hate, does not love, does not rejoice, does not delight in anything, and is not, and cannot be, sinned against.
Since you are asserting that the Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs 8 does not really do any of these things which Solomon tells us that Wisdom does (cry, put forth a voice, speak, give instruction, etc.), you are putting upon yourself a burden of having to tell us, then, what (if anything) it is you think Wisdom is really doing. Have fun with that!
"In what way was Wisdom with Yahweh in the creation Proverbs 8:22-31?"
In this way: YHWH the Son--Who is being referred to as "Wisdom", in Proverbs 8--was with YHWH the Father.
To claim, as you claim, that Wisdom, in Proverbs 8, is being personified, is to deny that Wisdom is a person. For you to deny that Wisdom, in Proverbs 8, is a person, is for you to contradict the truth that is being presented in Proverbs 8; in place of which Bible truth, you have nothing to offer but gobbledygook.
Also, I would note that I don't say that metaphor is not at all, anywhere, in any sense, being used in Proverbs 8. But one thing that is definitely nowhere to be found in Proverbs 8 is personification. I do not claim to be a Hebrew scholar, but I am aware that, in Hebrew, as in other languages that are not English, there are aspects of grammatical gender with which native English readers/speakers without fluency in other languages (such as myself) do not have much, if any, experience--let alone, expertise.
When we find, in the first three verses of Psalm 8, a single instance of the feminine pronoun, 'her', and two instances of the feminine pronoun, 'she', why is it that anti-Christ heretics such as yourself immediately jump to crying out, "Personification! Personification! Therefore, Wisdom is not a person!" ?
Why, instead, do you not consider something along these lines: "Hmmmmm. Perhaps this is not a case of something that is not a person being personified. Perhaps, instead, this is a case, after all, of a person who is not a female, not a woman, who is being, say, 'feminified'--a non-female person to whom, for some mysterious reason, is here being referred by means of feminine pronouns!" ?
Even you, yourself--by your very assertion of "personification"--have incidentally already conceded that Solomon's use of those feminine pronouns, 'her' and 'she', in Proverbs 8, does not necessitate that Solomon, writing about Wisdom, was referring to a woman!
In 1 Corinthians 1:24, of course, Paul tells us that Jesus Christ--a person--is the wisdom of God. In Luke 11:49-51, we read:
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; 51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. |
We also read, in Matthew 23, that "then spake Jesus":
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. |
Jesus continues:
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. |
Here, a person, Jesus, the wisdom of God, though not female, is yet to some extent describing His (Jesus') will in terms of femininity--by comparing Himself to a hen, a mother, a female, though He is obviously not stating that He is female. And yet, according to your anti-Christ failure of a treatment of Proverbs 8, it is simply impossible for Solomon to have been speaking of Jesus, and referring to Jesus as "Wisdom", because we find there three instances of feminine pronouns being used by Solomon to refer to Wisdom.
It certainly makes the love that God is, a person. If the love that God is were not a person, then God would not be a person.
By which cherished, robotically-repeated mantra of yours you mean nothing, and have never answered any question I've asked you. I've even asked you at least once why, since there is absolutely no reason, whatsoever, to do so, you always feel that you need to capitalize the word, 'one', whenever you write, "there is One God..." Of course, nothing but crickets from you regarding that question, as well as regarding oh so many more questions. For instance, just recently, when you wrote:
I asked you:
-
So far, you've answered neither of these questions.
Also, there is, in Proverbs 8, no depiction of any woman having been with YHWH when YHWH created the earth.
Also, there is, in Proverbs 8, no depiction of any woman having been with YHWH when YHWH created the earth.
In any case, you blaspheme YHWH by denying that YHWH is the Wisdom spoken of by Solomon, in Proverbs 8.
7djengo7
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Here, we find Wisdom declaring that "those that seek me early shall find me". In Psalm 63:1, we find David addressing God, saying, "O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee...…"
Yet, according to you, God is not Wisdom, and Wisdom is not God. So, according to you, David has to choose between seeking God early, on the one hand, and seeking Wisdom early, on the other. So, do you think David chose wisely, in choosing to seek God early over seeking Wisdom early?
God's Truth
New member
They are all the same Spirit.
If you could send your spirit out it would still be you.
God's Truth
New member
That is too weird that you came up with that by anything I said.
By the way, I don’t see the scriptures calling the angels “Gods” and or “Elohim”.
There are scriptures that are a prophecy of Jesus. There are anti types of Jesus. For instance,all the names of the prophets are anti types of Jesus; Israel is God's first born an anti type; the Jordan is too, and the bronze snake, the rock in the desert, a lamb, circumcision, external washings, special days, sacrifices, all anti types of Jesus.
Are you going to deny that?
I tell you that the saved are given God’s Spirit to live in their heart, and how we are only given one Spirit, and that proves Jesus is God because the Father and Jesus live in us at the same time when we are given that ONE SPIRIT.
All you say in response is that God doesn’t really live in us when we are saved. What kind of answer is that you going against what God says?
When a person is saved, the Father and Jesus live in them.
How do you receive ONE Spirit, yet have TWO different persons or Spirits in you?
You can't get past that.
God's Truth
New member
I already proved you wrong with scripture.
Sovereign
Jesus has everything under his control.
What does sovereign in the Bible mean?
Sovereignty of God is the Christian teaching that God is the supreme authority and all things are under His control. ... Easton's Bible Dictionary defines God's Sovereignty as His "absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure."
Ephesians 1:22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,
1 Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Sovereign
See also these scriptures that say plainly Jesus is the sovereign Lord, and the ONLY King of king and Lord of lords:
Revelation 17:14 They will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones."
1 Timothy 6:15 which God will bring about in His own time--He who is blessed and the only Sovereign One, the King of kings and Lord of lords.
Father
Acts 1:24 Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen
Revelation 2:23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
1 Kings 8:39 then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with everyone according to all they do, since you know their hearts (for you alone know every human heart),
Don't you study the scriptures I give?
Can’t you see where the scriptures say Lord (Jesus) KNOWS THEIR HEARTS?
Then read the scripture of God the Father ALONE KNOWS EVERY HUMAN HEART?
God ALONE knows every human heart---Jesus knows every human heart.
That is proof Jesus is God.
GOD THE ALMIGHTY is Israel’s King.
Jesus is Israel’s King.
Proof that Jesus is God Almighty.
God the LORD Almighty is the King as stated in the Old Testament scripture:
Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
God is the King as stated in Timothy:
1 Timothy 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
NOW READ THIS:
The Lamb, Jesus, is Israel's King, the Redeemer.
Revelation 17:14
They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
There is so many more scriptures, but you don’t respond to them, only to say I never gave you proof.
They may be the same Spirit but they are different persons.