Jehovah Witness Teaching compared with The Bible

KingdomRose

New member
Jehovah Witness Teaching compared with The Bible
I mentioned to a JW on another thread, that I agreed with the JWs on some of their teachings, but that I disagreed with quite a few of their other teachings. I hope to present some of these differences in this thread, and I hope we can take this steadily, without jumping to every topic at once. Possibly as each topic is reasonably covered we can either agree, or disagree, but our respective positions will be reasonably covered. I hope to learn from this interaction.

Topic 1: The return of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven
Acts 1:9-11 (KJV): 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Acts 1:9-11 (NWT 2013): 9 After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”


My understanding of the above is that Jesus is to return to the earth in a similar way to that mentioned above, literally, visibly and as a result Jesus will be actually upon the earth, and no longer in heaven. I also believe that the return of Jesus is still future and when this occurs it will result in the overthrow of the kingdoms of men and be the start of the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon earth that will last for 1000 years.

My assessment of the JW position is that Jesus will not literally return to the earth. I will let them explain their position, but it could be that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914, but is still in heaven. There may be other reasons why they claim that he will not literally return or that it is not possible for Jesus to return to the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

I may have answered this before, but I don't remember. From what I see when I read these verses, Jesus will return invisibly because the angels said that he would come back just like he went up. He was obscured within the clouds so that they didn't see him any longer.

Verse 9: "He was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision."

Verse 11: "They said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky will come thus in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky.'"

It plainly says, to me, that Jesus was obscured from their sight, and he will be obscured from sight when he comes back.


We also believe, as you do, that when Jesus comes at Armageddon he will overthrow all of the kingdoms of men and establish the Kingdom of God over the earth that will last for 1,000 years.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again KingdomRose,
I may have answered this before, but I don't remember. From what I see when I read these verses, Jesus will return invisibly because the angels said that he would come back just like he went up. He was obscured within the clouds so that they didn't see him any longer.
Verse 9: "He was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision."
Verse 11: "They said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky will come thus in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky.'"
It plainly says, to me, that Jesus was obscured from their sight, and he will be obscured from sight when he comes back.
The sequence was they went with him to the Mount of Olives, he ascended, then received and obscured by a cloud and then went to heaven. His return will be coming from heaven, descending from a cloud, his feet will then be on the ground (compare Zechariah 14:4) and he will then be with his disciples upon the earth. As a result of this Jesus will no longer be in heaven Acts 3:20-21.
We also believe, as you do, that when Jesus comes at Armageddon he will overthrow all of the kingdoms of men and establish the Kingdom of God over the earth that will last for 1,000 years.
At least we agree on some aspects of the overall picture.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Jehovah Witness Teaching compared with The Bible
I mentioned to a JW on another thread, that I agreed with the JWs on some of their teachings, but that I disagreed with quite a few of their other teachings. I hope to present some of these differences in this thread, and I hope we can take this steadily, without jumping to every topic at once. Possibly as each topic is reasonably covered we can either agree, or disagree, but our respective positions will be reasonably covered. I hope to learn from this interaction.

Topic 1: The return of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven
Acts 1:9-11 (KJV): 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Acts 1:9-11 (NWT 2013): 9 After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”


My understanding of the above is that Jesus is to return to the earth in a similar way to that mentioned above, literally, visibly and as a result Jesus will be actually upon the earth, and no longer in heaven. I also believe that the return of Jesus is still future and when this occurs it will result in the overthrow of the kingdoms of men and be the start of the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon earth that will last for 1000 years.

My assessment of the JW position is that Jesus will not literally return to the earth. I will let them explain their position, but it could be that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914, but is still in heaven. There may be other reasons why they claim that he will not literally return or that it is not possible for Jesus to return to the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

Shalom.

Today is Shlishli (Third), 12-26. It is Yom, Day. I am writing from Tacoma, Washington.

I applaud your efforts here. I do not know about your subject. However, that you would want people to understand the truth of Scripture, the Bible, is laudable.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

jaybird

New member
Jesus was asked about false teachers, He said we will know them by their fruits. what are the fruits of JWs, are they starting wars, kicking families out of homes, devising wicked schemes, causing dissension among brothers? i see lots of this going on today but its not JWs doing it.
 

KingdomRose

New member
Greetings SonOfCaleb, I appreciate your response and participation. I am still confused as to how you understand Acts 1:11. You seem to add a filter or two from other JW teachings, which we could discuss at length, but you may be able to clarify some of this by brief answers to the following:
1. When Jesus led the Apostles to the Mount of Olives and then ascended from their presence, was he visible to the Apostles or not?
2. Was he in a human form or spirit form when he ascended? What do you really mean by human form? (3) is a statement not a question, but you could respond to this:
3. Considering a spiritual body, and my definition may be different to yours. I believe that a spiritual body is a body that is resurrected and changed from mortality to immortality, but God uses the original body or dust if available as the basis of this change from mortality to immortality. Jesus is the first and his body was resurrected and this same body was changed to immortality, but the faithful will be resurrected or changed when he returns.
4. Do you take the return of Jesus in Acts 1:11 as spoken to the Apostles as describing 1914 or the yet anticipated return of Jesus?
5. Are the Apostles now in heaven?
6. When Jesus returns in the future will he still be in heaven?

To keep this thread moving, I consider the following is Peter’s comments and interpretation of what he was told in Acts 1:11. In other words, he believed that Jesus would return from heaven and at that time be upon the earth, even possibly witnessing his feet standing upon the Mount of Olives Zechariah 14:4 and this will usher in the times of restoration and refreshment, the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth.

Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Acts 3:19-21 (NWT 2013): 19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old.


Kind regards
Trevor

First point: It is not Jesus whose feet stand upon the Mount of Olives, but it is Jehovah whose feet symbolically stand on the Mount of Olives. There is a deeper meaning to the verses, and none of it is a literal standing by Jehovah.

Second point: I commented about Acts 1:9-11 already, and I hope you found it above. (I started reading through this thread all over again, from the beginning, since it's been a while since I participated in it.) I don't see Acts. 3:19-21 the way you do. Verse 19 is speaking of the Father (YHWH, God)....times of refreshing shall come from the presence of "the Lord," which is YHWH, and he shall send Jesus Christ. Isn't Jesus Christ SENT, according to verse 20? Who sends him? The "he" of the previous verse, YHWH/Jehovah. "The Lord" of verse 19 could not be Jesus, because Jesus is being sent BY the someone in the previous verse.

Now, I don't understand what your hesitation is to agree with us on that point.
 

KingdomRose

New member
That sounds all post-modern ecumenical and all, but you’re looking for a dialog with Satan. Something you need to understand about cults is that they are built on lies. It’s from this they derive their “product exclusivity” in the market of religion. This is how they enslave a congregation, get power over them, their money, etc. Few of their proselyte dupes have had a born again experience, and, in my life, I’ve known many those born again whose testimony was they left the cult, this of all the cults, whose testimony was, like all authentic Christians, they had a hunger for the word of God and found the cult was lying about scripture and making stuff up. The Holy Spirit leads into all truth, or a person does not have the Spirit. A person is on a course the direction of truth, in other words, if they have the Holy Spirit, if they have eyes that see and ears that hear. And faith starts with repentance, changing one’s mind and coming into agreement with God, not loving and believing Satanic lies and spreading doctrines that try to make God a liar! These people have never repented and refuse to, year after year.

Dialog based on truth with the dyed-in-the-wool cultist? They don’t believe God's very word that flies in the face of what they believe is preeminent, and that is their cult false prophets and leadership. The writings of the false prophet are esteemed above scripture, to the point that, in their unregenerate blindness and disdain for truth, they refuse clear scripture from the word of God that clearly contradicts their lies: God is saying that’s a lie, but they don’t care about that, not one whit. They are signed-up for man’s false doctrines.

I would suggest to you can’t have a fruitful dialog with that, that the true child of God can’t really have an understanding with lies and Satan. These people, at the core, reject scripture truth everyday! It’s like the principle a friend of the world is an enemy of God. Any such effort is no different than trying to find common ground with Muslims, who, in the final analysis, are antichrist and would have your head. Jehovah’s Witnesses are, in fact, antichrist, denying the full deity of the Lord Jesus, reject our very God. Again, they reject all truth of God’s word that contradicts them, over and over, are not naive heathen, hearing the gospel for the first time. What sort of understanding are you seeking? That you both like chocolate ice cream? Once it dawns on you there’s no agreement about the Person of God, the Cornerstone, what agreement is there at all of any consequence? There’s a whole mountain of lies beyond that, and all liars go to the lake of fire.

Please do report back your results, maybe summarize them, like perhaps achieving a dialog with Muslims that we can all agree you don’t rape a little girl younger than nine years old. Maybe sing a few bars of Kumbaya together? That and a dime, three dollars for inflation, will buy you a cup of coffee, anyway.

We are in good company, because the evil people of Jesus' day called him demonized. So....you call us spawns of Satan or whatever wording you choose, but we are the people that Jesus is guiding to preach to the world about his coming Kingdom. You don't even know what it is.

"The Jews said to Jesus, "Do we not rightly say, You are a Samaritan and have a demon'?" (John 8:48)


Jesus did not have a demon, and neither do we.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Jesus was asked about false teachers, He said we will know them by their fruits. what are the fruits of JWs, are they starting wars, kicking families out of homes, devising wicked schemes, causing dissension among brothers? i see lots of this going on today but its not JWs doing it.

Shalom.

Today is Revi'i (Fourth) 12-27, evening and morning, night and day. It is evening, night. I am writing from Tacoma, Washington. The sun has set.

You have an interesting perspective. Does it make sense to exonerate people who are wrong about something? If we can think we can think about what is going on and what needs to be done about it.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

KingdomRose

New member
Greetings again SonOfCaleb,
Topic 1: The return of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven (cont’d) I would like to comment further upon this, as it seems that you structure many of your teachings (JW teachings) around this concept. As I stated, I believe that Jesus was resurrected in the same body that was crucified and lay in the tomb for three days.
Trevor
If Jesus had been resurrected in the same body he died in, his sacrifice would be null and void. He GAVE UP his physical human life so that we could live forever. He wasn't going to take it back. He returned to the state that he was in---a spirit body---before he came to the earth.

"It is even so written: 'The first man Adam became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45)

"Even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit." (I Peter 3:18)
 

KingdomRose

New member
Also, I don't understand why you call the people with the earthly hope a "servant" class. We don't think of ourselves that way. Both us and those in heaven---we all serve God.
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
Shalom.

Today is Revi'i (Fourth) 12-27, evening and morning, night and day. It is evening, night. I am writing from Tacoma, Washington. The sun has set.

You have an interesting perspective. Does it make sense to exonerate people who are wrong about something? If we can think we can think about what is going on and what needs to be done about it.

Shalom.

Jacob

He is talking about fruit we are producing.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Is this really a relevant question? Of course heaven is a place. Jehovah resides there and Jesus is at His right hand.

Are claiming we are in heaven?

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:9-11)
 

jaybird

New member
Shalom.

Today is Revi'i (Fourth) 12-27, evening and morning, night and day. It is evening, night. I am writing from Tacoma, Washington. The sun has set.

You have an interesting perspective. Does it make sense to exonerate people who are wrong about something? If we can think we can think about what is going on and what needs to be done about it.

Shalom.

Jacob

Shalom Jacob.

if someone is seeking what Jesus taught IMO thats all that matters. if they call themselves JW, Ebonite, or Franciscan it makes little difference to me.
their were crowds of believers that followed Jesus, some thought He was Elijah, john the baptist, or one of the prophets, none the less they still followed Him and listened to what He had to say.
 
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