It's The Pastor: Haggard's the One Who Must Go

[Jefferson]

It's The Pastor: Haggard's the One Who Must Go

Friday November 3rd, 2006.

BEST QUOTE OF THE SHOW:

Christians...need to go out to battle. That's what they need to do. They need to engage the enemy, fight the spiritual fight. But when they don't and they just stay home with their remote control watching sports and FOX News and they go to their bible studies and they pray before meals and they go to church and that's about the extent of their ministry, they're like David in the time when Kings go out to battle, David remained at home. [2 Samuel 11:1]

Summary:

* Ted Haggard Admits "Some" Guilt: that he received a massage, and purchased crystal methamphetamine from Mike Jones, his homosexual prostitute accuser. Like Bill Clinton who denied ever actually inhaling marijuana, Haggard claims he never took the drugs, however, the messages he left for the homosexual prostitute belie a standing relationship of familiarity and trust.

Post Show Update: Time magazine quotes Haggard's startling comments in the movie, Jesus Camp, speaking about homosexuality and then looking "mockingly into the camera to say, 'I think I know what you did last night. If you send me a thousand dollars, I won't tell your wife.' The crowd responds with peals of laughter. Then he says with a wide smile, 'If you use any of this, I'll sue you.'"

* The BEL General Manager: Will Duffy predicted yesterday that if Haggard is guilty, he will only admit to the drugs, and not to the homosexual behavior. And Bob Enyart added that if so, the Nat'l Association of Evangelicals will be finished with him, but his church would probably slap him on the wrist and he'd be back in the pulpit in six months. So far, Will's prediction has come true. We'll wait to judge Bob's.

* Peter Boyles as Nathan: KHOW talk show host Peter Boyles hurts his "gay" neighbors, and rebels against God, by praising homosexuals. But still, regarding these accusations, Boyles played the role of Nathan the prophet to Haggard's adulterous King David.

Post Show Update: Even the Arabic media is reporting on this "Christian" hypocrisy, including the Islamic Aljazeera network. As Nathan told David, "by this deed you have given great opportunity to the enemies of the LORD..."

Today's Resource: Enjoy Nicer than God, a fast-paced critique of today's Christian teaching on the issues of judging, forgiveness, confrontation, etc. in audiotape or MP3 CD format (to order the MP3 CD, you must call 800-8Enyart).

 

[Evee]

If he is guilty..
One would think he would step down and hold on to what dignity he has left.
I just don't understand how ministers of God think they will never get caught.
That would be no way to live in deceit and lies.
Just shows when one raises themself so high, then comes the fall.

 

[Evee]

I guess this is where the prayer should kick in.

 

[DavesWorldView]

Haggard's Punishment Under a Government of Justice

Haggard's Punishment Under a Government of Justice

America's current Just-A-System will not even care about the situation involving Haggard and the homo-whore. If we had a righteous Justice System in this country, then two major issues would already be on the table for prosecution. The first would be the capital crime of Adultery, which would be punishable by death if convicted. The second would be the capital crime of homosexuality, which would also be punishable by death.

Both men involved in these crimes would face a Judge that would listen to all evidence and pronounce a verdict. If convicted of these capital crimes, then the two men would be executed on TV within 24-36 hours of conviction.

 

[aharvey]

America's current Just-A-System will not even care about the situation involving Haggard and the homo-whore. If we had a righteous Justice System in this country, then two major issues would already be on the table for prosecution. The first would be the capital crime of Adultery, which would be punishable by death if convicted. The second would be the capital crime of homosexuality, which would also be punishable by death.

Isn't it ironic how much more huffing and puffing at TOL is aimed at homosexuality than at adultery? And yet, for every person put to death for the second, er, capital crime, you mention, how many do you think would be put to death for the first (assuming the law operates as you intend)? And this would hardly be a case of Christians wrecking havoc on mere unbelievers, as the current story shows.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Isn't it ironic how much more huffing and puffing at TOL is aimed at homosexuality than at adultery? And yet, for every person put to death for the second, er, capital crime, you mention, how many do you think would be put to death for the first (assuming the law operates as you intend)? And this would hardly be a case of Christians wrecking havoc on mere unbelievers, as the current story shows.

It isn't ironic at all!

There aren't parades in our major cities promoting adultery. There aren't constitutional amendments that would give adultery participants special rights etc.

Homosexuality gets more attention because homosexual advocates force the issue more than adultery advocates.

This type of stuff is common sense, which turns out to be "not so common".

 

[aharvey]

It isn't ironic at all!

No, it's ironic all right.

There aren't parades ini our major cities promoting adultery.

Maybe because adulterers tend to know that what they're doing hurts the person they married.

There aren't constitutional amendments that would give adultery participants special rights etc.

"Special rights"? You mean "rights that everyone else takes for granted"? Perhaps you could clarify this. I certainly don't think a group of people should expect special treatment merely because of their sexual orientation!

Homosexuality gets more attention because homosexual advocates force the issue more than adultery advocates.

I wonder why?

This type of stuff is common sense, which turns out to be "not so common".

Somehow, common sense tells me that despite your protestations, you don't huff and puff about homosexuality more than adultery simply because homosexuals dare to think that they're not doing anything wrong, whereas adulterers know that what they do is wrong.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Somehow, common sense tells me that despite your protestations, you don't huff and puff about homosexuality more than adultery simply because homosexuals dare to think that they're not doing anything wrong, whereas adulterers know that what they do is wrong.

Well then... you have just refuted your own assertion haven't you?

Regardless of the reason that homosexual advocates push harder than adultery advocates is a different topic. The point is.... even you agree that homosexual advocates push their issues more than adultery advocates and therefore there will be more public opposition to homosexual causes because those issues are in the forefront of the public discourse.

In conclusion it isn't ironic that many "huff and puff" more about homosexual issues than they do about adultery.

 

[aharvey]

Well then... you have just refuted your own assertion haven't you?

Regardless of the reason that homosexual advocates push harder than adultery advocates is a different topic. The point is.... even you agree that homosexual advocates push their issues more than adultery advocates and therefore there will be more public opposition to homosexual causes because those issues are in the forefront of the public discourse.

In conclusion it isn't ironic that many "huff and puff" more about homosexual issues than they do about adultery.

Let's try that "common sense" thing again. Your claim appears to be that your "huff and puff" is a response to the push being made by homosexual advocates, implying that if they didn't bring it up, neither would you (as evidenced by the all-around silence in the "adultery wars"). Is that so?

And I'm curious. If these neverending attacks are merely a response to homosexual advocacy, just how much homosexual advocacy are you having to deal with? Or is any awareness enough to trigger this sustained level of rage? No, that would argue against your thesis, wouldn't it?

See, I'm not denying that people will talk about issues that people are talking about. I just don't think that explains why y'all spin dozens of threads attacking homosexuals for every thread attacking adulterers. And the irony comes from the stated reasons for attacking homosexuals, which would seem to apply just as well to adulterers, who would seem to be at least an order of magnitude more common than homosexuals, which would seem to make adultery a much more appropriate target than homosexuality, at least for the reasons given for TOL's righteous wrath. Sorry, Knight, "common sense" does not explain this anomaly with Gay Pride marches.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Sorry, Knight, "common sense" does not explain this anomaly with Gay Pride marches.

Well then... it's clear that "sense" is something you are lacking.

 

[Jukia]

Well then... it's clear that "sense" is something you are lacking.

Wow, if I could do a Post of the Day, this would be it. But I think the irony would be lost.

aharvey posts a thoughtful response to some earlier posts and this is all you can come up with? I suspect it is easier not to try to think through a harvey's questions and therefore not have to analyze your own position other than to reply with "God says so" the equivilent to the "God did it" response to a harvey's well reasoned and factually backed up posts dealing with evolution.

I tend to get a little irritated in some of my responses here. a harvey always seems to be a bit more civilized. Seems to me that the fundamentalists here should do the same, especially with posters like a harvey. But then again, I tend to take a bit less of a judgmental attitude than some of the regulars here, yet I would think that sharing the Gospel with a bit of honey rather than a bitter lemon would be more effective and efficient.

 

[Merfbliff]

It isn't ironic at all!

There aren't parades ini our major cities promoting adultery. There aren't constitutional amendments that would give adultery participants special rights etc.

Homosexuality gets more attention because homosexual advocates force the issue more than adultery advocates.

This type of stuff is common sense, which turns out to be "not so common".

So is walking in a Gay Parade enough evidence to convict someone to death? (in your neo-nazi fairy land, I mean) Or must they first commit the act? Then you're back to square one, you have to send police into the bedrooms of every home in America to check marraige licences. Get REAL! If God wanted homosexuals dead, he would've listened to Benny Hinn and killed them all by fire in '85 or whatever.

It's clear that "sense" is something you are lacking.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Wow, if I could do a Post of the Day, this would be it. But I think the irony would be lost.

aharvey posts a thoughtful response to some earlier posts and this is all you can come up with? I suspect it is easier not to try to think through a harvey's questions and therefore not have to analyze your own position other than to reply with "God says so" the equivilent to the "God did it" response to a harvey's well reasoned and factually backed up posts dealing with evolution.

I tend to get a little irritated in some of my responses here. a harvey always seems to be a bit more civilized. Seems to me that the fundamentalists here should do the same, especially with posters like a harvey. But then again, I tend to take a bit less of a judgmental attitude than some of the regulars here, yet I would think that sharing the Gospel with a bit of honey rather than a bitter lemon would be more effective and efficient.

Jukia... you tell me....

Why do you suppose people "huff and huff" about homosexual issues more than they do issues regarding to adultery?

The answer is so obvious, is it really worth debating? Even aharvey's posts acknowledges the answer.

 

[PKevman]

So is walking in a Gay Parade enough evidence to convict someone to death? (in your neo-nazi fairy land, I mean) Or must they first commit the act? Then you're back to square one, you have to send police into the bedrooms of every home in America to check marraige licences. Get REAL! If God wanted homosexuals dead, he would've listened to Benny Hinn and killed them all by fire in '85 or whatever.

It's clear that "sense" is something you are lacking.

:mock: Merbliff

 

[aharvey]

Jukia... you tell me....

Why do you suppose people "huff and huff" about homosexual issues more than they do issues regarding to adultery?

The answer is so obvious, is it really worth debating? Even aharvey's posts acknowledges the answer.

Well, no, they don't, exactly. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion, now, would we? Come on, use some common sense!

Here are a few possible reasons why folks here send a hundred anti-gay posts for every anti-adulterer post. See what you think:

• homosexuals just piss them off more than adulterers
• they are more likely to be friends with adulterers than with homosexuals (whether or not they explicitly know who)
• they are more likely to be an adulterer than a homosexual
• they think homosexuality destroys a hundred marriages for every one adultery destroys (perhaps the most valid and least probable scenario!)
• attraction to the same sex is harder for them to understand than illicit attraction to the opposite sex, making it easier to demonize
• it's more important to convince unconvinced homosexuals that what they're doing is wrong than it is to deal with the far greater problem of adultery
• they're just responding to the homosexual lobby's constant whining about having the same rights as anyone else

There, see, while it's on the list, I think your rationalization hardly rates as a primary motivation.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

There, see, while it's on the list, I think your rationalization hardly rates as a primary motivation.

Adultery is devastating, and you're right to say that adultery effects a massive amount of people.

Yet since there are not really any adultery advocates there just isn't the same amount of urgency expended into fighting a political movement like there is with homosexuals.

Can you think of one adultery advocacy group? Is there a political party that generally promotes defending the rights of adulterers as a stated part of their platform? :think:

You see... with homosexuality the is an actual political battle going on, whereas with adultery it's still primarily a personal battle for individuals.

 

[aharvey]

Adultery is devastating, and you're right: that effects a massive amount of people.

Yet since there are not really any adultery advocates there just isn't the same amount of urgency expended into fighting a political movement like there is with homosexuals.

Can you think of one adultery advocacy group? Is there a political party that generally promotes defending the rights of adulterers? :think:

You see... with homosexuality the is an actual political battle going on, whereas with adultery it's still primarily a personal battle for individuals.

Perhaps we're getting closer to a breakthrough here than I thought (I should confess that from the start I've been fully aware that there are no adultery advocacy groups, presumably for the same reason that there are no rape advocacy groups).

You alluded earlier to "special treatment" being asked for by homosexuals; I'll ask you again what those "special" rights might include, because my sense is that they are asking for nothing that isn't already readily available to you, and for the simple reason that you are (presumably) not homosexual.

So if I'm not mistaken, you fight the political battle to continue to deprive a small segment of the population, engaged in one type of "personal battle," from having the kind of rights you take for granted. In contrast, you've no stomach for a political battle to deprive a much larger segment of the population of these same sort of rights that, one would presume, you wouldn't think they'd be any more entitled to. Rather, you're content leaving them to fight their own "personal battle," each one of which arguably affects more innocent bystanders than a homosexual's "personal battle."

Far more adulterers, each one's actions more destructive to more people. They've already got the rights, and thus have no need for advocacy, which justifies to you leaving them be? Homosexuals want the same rights as anyone else, which is enough to justify as ferocious a response as you can muster? Sorry, still doesn't ring as true as some of the other items on my list.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Sorry, still doesn't ring as true as some of the other items on my list.

Well... since I am one of the ones that "huff and puff" and you are not, I guess I am a bit more qualified to answer than you are.

However, you are free to disagree all you want and yell to the mountain tops that you know my motives better than I.

 

[Adam]

Let us compare and contrast homosexuality with adultery, shall we?

Comparisons

• You are neither born a homo or an adulterer
• Acting on either is a capital crime according to God's criminal code
• They both spread disease and death
• They both undermine the family structure
• A common cause, and result, of both, is insecurity
• Both seek the creation, not the Creator, for fulfillment
• Both attempt to redefine commitment

Contrasts

• Homos break God's first command, "Be fruitful and multiply."
• Homos are gross. It's natural to desire the opposite sex. Adultery is an unnatural response to a natural desire. Homos have an unnatural response to an unnatural desire.

I know there are other comparisons and contrasts. Those are just a few off the top of my head.

So, why is it that I can only think of two contrasts, yet think of multiple comparisons, and yet judge homos more frequently than adulterers?

The answer is number two in the contrast section. Most people think homos are gross. I think even homos think homos are gross. Everyone knows it's unnatural, just like everyone knows there is a God.

That's a BIG reason they try to have a national platform. Because they know people are grossed out by the whole sickening thing!

 

[Evee]

No doubt homosexuality is unnatural I too have a hard time with the grossness of it.
I can pray for them until I am blue but they have to make the decision to change.