Its safer to own a gun?

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Lon

Lon

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CabinetMaker said:
Where does it say we need a sword (gun) to do these things? I don't see anyplace in Christ's teachings that tell us to by guns to protect us against those who hate us. What did the early Christians do when faced with persecution in the Colosseum?
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I know they brought two swords when going to pray in the Garden :noway: I know the Lord Jesus Christ said "It is enough." :jawdrop:

Luke 22:35-38 Luke22:35 [Jesus] asked them [the eleven apostles], "When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
They said, "No, not a thing."
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"It is enough," he replied.

And this, just before the Cross. What do you think He meant? "It is enough???" No, "Wait fellas, I didn't mean THAT!"
:think: Not the Jesus you thought you knew? :think:

I struggled with this, just like you for a long time. I 'think' I was nicer than Jesus. Wise as serpents is part of gentle as doves. One of the greatest men 'after God's own heart' was a warrior named David. For your thoughts, prayer, and contemplation -Lon
Hih Cherub IV said:
But then he tells him to drop the sword.
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:think: verse? :think:

Hih Cherub IV said:
There's really nothing in the New Testament that defends the idea of Christians openly brandishing weapons, let alone venerating them.
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:think:

Luke 22:35-38 Luke22:35 [Jesus] asked them, "When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
They said, "No, not a thing."
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"It is enough," he replied.
 
CabinetMaker

CabinetMaker

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Lon said:
I know they brought two swords when going to pray in the Garden :noway: I know the Lord Jesus Christ said "It is enough." :jawdrop:

Luke 22:35-38 Luke22:35 [Jesus] asked them [the eleven apostles], "When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
They said, "No, not a thing."
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"It is enough," he replied.

And this, just before the Cross. What do you think He meant? "It is enough???" No, "Wait fellas, I didn't mean THAT!"
:think: Not the Jesus you thought you knew? :think:

I struggled with this, just like you for a long time. I 'think' I was nicer than Jesus. Wise as serpents is part of gentle as doves. One of the greatest men 'after God's own heart' was a warrior named David. For your thoughts, prayer, and contemplation -Lon
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And if we read a little further in Luke 22, we find out what happened with those swords:

49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
CabinetMaker said:
And if we read a little further in Luke 22, we find out what happened with those swords:

49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.
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AFTER His prayer. The point being He asked for the cup to pass. You nor I can erase His words:

Luke 22:35-38 Luke22:35 [Jesus] asked them [the eleven apostles], "When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
They said, "No, not a thing."
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"It is enough," he replied.


You might make a point that it was 'so scripture would be fulfilled' and I agree but 'why' was carrying defensive weapons part of the prophecy? Are you so sure that it is against His desire for us to protect the Fatherless and Widow? There are a good number of Christians that are also Pacifists. I think we need to be fully convinced in our own minds BUT I think we need to have grace to allow for another's convictions. "Wise as serpents" is part of the directive. I acquiesce that gentle as doves and being called sheep is about as docile as I can imagine (though rams are fairly obstinate).
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
Hih Cherub IV said:
So, was Jesus trying to be another King David or did he know Isaiah's prophesy for what it was?

See, this is a conflict you have, which I do not, even despite the conflict of Christ at the time.
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:think: I 'used' to have one, but came to the opposite conclusion you did :think:

No, I don't have a conflict either. Perhaps you could ask 'why?'
 
CabinetMaker

CabinetMaker

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Lon said:
AFTER His prayer. The point being He asked for the cup to pass. You nor I can erase His words:

Luke 22:35-38 Luke22:35 [Jesus] asked them [the eleven apostles], "When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
They said, "No, not a thing."
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"It is enough," he replied.


You might make a point that it was 'so scripture would be fulfilled' and I agree but 'why' was carrying defensive weapons part of the prophecy? Are you so sure that it is against His desire for us to protect the Fatherless and Widow? There are a good number of Christians that are also Pacifists. I think we need to be fully convinced in our own minds BUT I think we need to have grace to allow for another's convictions. "Wise as serpents" is part of the directive. I acquiesce that gentle as doves and being called sheep is about as docile as I can imagine (though rams are fairly obstinate).
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Jesus told them to bring swords but He never told them to use them. When they did use them of their own accord Jesus stopped them and healed the injury they caused. It is okay for use to be armed. But we should use GREAT discretion when deciding to use those weapons. I think that American culture has led us to see the gun as the first best option for dealing with threats and that this attitude has crept into Christian beliefs as well. I think it is wrong for a Christian to reach for a gun first.
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
CabinetMaker said:
Jesus told them to bring swords but He never told them to use them. When they did use them of their own accord Jesus stopped them and healed the injury they caused. It is okay for use to be armed. But we should use GREAT discretion when deciding to use those weapons. I think that American culture has led us to see the gun as the first best option for dealing with threats and that this attitude has crept into Christian beliefs as well. I think it is wrong for a Christian to reach for a gun first.
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His desire was to have the cup pass. How was that going to happen? Angels, for one. Matthew 26:53 2 Kings 6:17,18 Genesis 19:12,13

1 Chronicles 21:16 Numbers 22:23 Genesis 3:24
 
CabinetMaker

CabinetMaker

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Lon said:
His desire was to have the cup pass. How was that going to happen? Angels, for one. Matthew 26:53 2 Kings 6:17,18 Genesis 19:12,13

1 Chronicles 21:16 Numbers 22:23 Genesis 3:24
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Yes, God has His way of doing things. Still, none of those cites teaches that we are to take up arms against our neighbors as our first choice.
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
CabinetMaker said:
Yes, God has His way of doing things. Still, none of those cites teaches that we are to take up arms against our neighbors as our first choice.
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Lest I'm preaching to the choir, I think we just need, on this particular issue, to see the other guy's perspective. It think the case of 'defending' is more than simply laying down and dying. I understand the disagreement, I'm arguing for giving these another once over and considering why another thinks that defense is biblical. Have to agree? :nono: I don't think it is that clear-cut to rule out the other. I DO believe God is Sovereign and I'd rather have His hosts than 20 shotguns etc. -Lon
 
CabinetMaker

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musterion said:
Yes, you do. To answer the question honestly would blow a huge hole in the argument you've been trying to make here, so you pretend the question is somehow invalid.
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Its not the question I asked. You keep going off on tangents. The question I asked was why are we so afraid of each other? That was my original question. Everybody jumps in with,"because people are evil." Yes we are. ALL of us. So are you aremed to protect yourself from your neighbor or is your neighbor armed to protect themselves from you?
 
CabinetMaker

CabinetMaker

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Lon said:
Lest I'm preaching to the choir, I think we just need, on this particular issue, to see the other guy's perspective. It think the case of 'defending' is more than simply laying down and dying. I understand the disagreement, I'm arguing for giving these another once over and considering why another thinks that defense is biblical. Have to agree? :nono: I don't think it is that clear-cut to rule out the other. I DO believe God is Sovereign and I'd rather have His hosts than 20 shotguns etc. -Lon
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I would agree. I do not think it is as simple as a rule that will cover all situations. One needs to proceed from a prayerful consideration of each situation as it arises.
 
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musterion

musterion

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CabinetMaker said:
Its not the question I asked. You keep going off on tangents. The question I asked was why are we so afraid of each other? That was my original question. Everybody jumps in with,"because people are evil." Yes we are. ALL of us. So are you aremed to protect yourself from your neighbor or is your neighbor armed to protect themselves from you?
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Stop it. What I asked you goes right to the root of the issue AND YOU KNOW IT. But let's try again:

Back when the best weapon anyone could have was a sword, what was the best weapon to have to defend yourself from a criminal with a sword?
 
CabinetMaker

CabinetMaker

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musterion said:
Stop it. What I asked you goes right to the root of the issue AND YOU KNOW IT. But let's try again:

Back when the best weapon anyone could have was a sword, what was the best weapon to have to defend yourself from a criminal with a sword?
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A sword. So what. The type of weapon you have in your hand doesn't address the question I asked. You understand that, right?

That in no way address the question I asked. Your turn: The question I asked was why are we so afraid of each other? That was my original question. Everybody jumps in with,"because people are evil." Yes we are. ALL of us. So are you aremed to protect yourself from your neighbor or is your neighbor armed to protect themselves from you?
 
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