ECT Israel entered the new covenant in Acts ch 2.

Lazy afternoon

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Maists want it that Israel did not enter the new covenant inaugerated by Jesus blood in Acts ch 2.

All the ingredients of Heb.ch 8 were there--

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Madists want to say that Israel of Acts 2 did NOT go into all of the nations with the gospel and Holy Spirit of the new covenant, but will in the coming millennium.

It is so obvious that they did already--

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

mankind has been entering into the new covenant ever since (except for Madists)

and no scripture says the command was withdrawn or put on hold.

LA
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The desire to impact the nations is not met in a Davidic theocracy. It is to be met in the mission of the Messiah's Gospel.

A note on 'soon disappear' Heb 8:13. This was not by itself. This started in 7:18 when it said that the previous 'is set aside' (indicating what was going on in that generation, with its dramatic ending).
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Israel entered the new covenant in Acts ch 2.

I guess Paul was wrong because he placed the fulfillment of that covenant in the future:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).​

and no scripture says the command was withdrawn or put on hold.

Let us look what Peter said on the day of Pentecost:

"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come" (Acts 2:14-20).​

When did the events in "bold" come to pass in the first century?
 

Danoh

New member
I guess Paul was wrong because he placed the fulfillment of that covenant in the future:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).​



Let us look what Peter said on the day of Pentecost:

"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come" (Acts 2:14-20).​

When did the events in "bold" come to pass in the first century?

IP and company see that quote from Romans 11 as referring to how that when the fulness of the Gentile SIDE of a supposed "spiritual Israel" comes then "all Israel" will have been saved with that - both Jews and Gentiles this supposed "spiritual Israel" comprises.

In this model, they view the quote from Isaiah as describing things yet future from Isaiah's day, that were now taking place in Paul's day, and ongoing into our own...

Just goes to show how a misread of one thing just grows and grows from it into more and more, and to such an extent that by the time such an individual looks up from his error, there is not much chance of getting through to them due to the build of wax on their hearing their error upon error has resulted in.

In fairness, though, others assert the fulness of the Gentiles that Paul was actually referring to was filled full in Paul's lifetime or some such.

In this, I continue to find each our supposed expertise over another amusing; my own included.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
I guess Paul was wrong because he placed the fulfillment of that covenant in the future:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).​



Let us look what Peter said on the day of Pentecost:

"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come" (Acts 2:14-20).​

When did the events in "bold" come to pass in the first century?



I agree 'all saved' sounds future Jerry but rather than one event in the future, he means that the true Israel down through time, really, will all be saved. Saved means justified in Romans, it never means a restored land and theocracy.

Ignore the tense of Isaiah, because Isaiah is in Paul's past; Paul/Christ are in Isaiah's future. So that is moot.

The Gospel does take away sins! 'Behold the Lamb!...'

As for the descriptions of Joel 2, the situation is wide-open at that point. Everyone knew the 490 years were up, yet Jesus had allowed at least a generation between his cross and the collapse of Jerusalem, in Lk 23:29, if I understand human biology. The event of the cross did turn dark; there was blood 'everywhere.' There was an earthquake and the raising of saints from before, Mt 27. The events of the destruction of Jerusalem COULD have taken place right after. there were signficant revolts and clashes before the cross and after. There were unusual signs taking place in the DofJ, in the sky, in things that were heard, in the heat of the ground under the temple, that Josephus would rather not have mentioned except that so many people independently confirmed them.

Once you are more familiar with the history, you are less inclined to needle the text for 'exact' things.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I guess Paul was wrong because he placed the fulfillment of that covenant in the future:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).​

All of the elect of Israel have been getting saved since the time of Christ.

You have not noticed that Christ already came out of Zion to turn ungodliness away from Jacob.

The next time Christ comes there is no way that any further repentance for the living is possible--

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


Let us look what Peter said on the day of Pentecost:

"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come" (Acts 2:14-20).​

When did the events in "bold" come to pass in the first century?

The verses speak of this entire age of the last days.

You overlay the teachings of the Bible with your own views and do not pay attention to what is actually said.

All the denominations do that.

LA
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I agree 'all saved' sounds future Jerry but rather than one event in the future, he means that the true Israel down through time, really, will all be saved.

Let us look at this passage which speaks of the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more"
(Jer.31:31-34).​

In this passage we can see that the "fathers" of both the house of Israel and the house of Judah are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their "fathers" broke the LORD's covenant and it was the physical descendants of Jacob who did that.

So these verses prove that sometime in the FUTURE all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be saved.

Since you put your preconceived ideas above what the Scriptures actually say you will never believe what is written in this passage.
 
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DAN P

Well-known member
I agree 'all saved' sounds future Jerry but rather than one event in the future, he means that the true Israel down through time, really, will all be saved. Saved means justified in Romans, it never means a restored land and theocracy.

Ignore the tense of Isaiah, because Isaiah is in Paul's past; Paul/Christ are in Isaiah's future. So that is moot.

The Gospel does take away sins! 'Behold the Lamb!...'

As for the descriptions of Joel 2, the situation is wide-open at that point. Everyone knew the 490 years were up, yet Jesus had allowed at least a generation between his cross and the collapse of Jerusalem, in Lk 23:29, if I understand human biology. The event of the cross did turn dark; there was blood 'everywhere.' There was an earthquake and the raising of saints from before, Mt 27. The events of the destruction of Jerusalem COULD have taken place right after. there were signficant revolts and clashes before the cross and after. There were unusual signs taking place in the DofJ, in the sky, in things that were heard, in the heat of the ground under the temple, that Josephus would rather not have mentioned except that so many people independently confirmed them.

Once you are more familiar with the history, you are less inclined to needle the text for 'exact' things.


Hi and anyone CAN CHECK Rom 11:26 and see , that there are 5 verbs in that verse !!

#1, SHALL BE SAVED is in the Greek FUTURE YTENSE !!

#2 , IT IS WRITTEN is always in the Greek PERFECT GTENSE !!

#3 , THERE SHALL COME is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE !!

#4, THE DELIVERER is in the Greek PERSENT TENSE and speaks to the second coming of Jesus in Matt 24 !!

#5 , SHALL TURN ALWAY verb is also in the FUTURE TENSE and Jerry has you where he wants you !!

It does not seem to be FUTURE , but it is FUTURE !!

dan p
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Hi and anyone CAN CHECK Rom 11:26 and see , that there are 5 verbs in that verse !!

#1, SHALL BE SAVED is in the Greek FUTURE YTENSE !!

#2 , IT IS WRITTEN is always in the Greek PERFECT GTENSE !!

#3 , THERE SHALL COME is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE !!

#4, THE DELIVERER is in the Greek PERSENT TENSE and speaks to the second coming of Jesus in Matt 24 !!

#5 , SHALL TURN ALWAY verb is also in the FUTURE TENSE and Jerry has you where he wants you !!

It does not seem to be FUTURE , but it is FUTURE !!

dan p



The whole group of the new Israel gets saved (because it accumulates all through time) but the verses quoted from Isaiah are fulfilled already in Paul's time (Isaiah's future).
 

northwye

New member
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. " Jeremiah 31: 31-33

At the time Jeremiah wrote, the New Covenant was to be created by Christ in the future.

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8: 6-13

Hebrews was written after the New Covenant was established. It existed at the time Hebrews was written. That the New Covenant is future is a lie.

The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 4-9

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8. How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." II Corinthians 3: 6-11

The Old Covenant does not now exist; Christ took it away, so he could establish the New Covenant, and so the Old Covenant in II Corinthians 3 is said to have been done away.

With whom was the New Covenant established? Jeremiah 31` says it was to be with the house of Israel and of Judah.

And so Romans 10: 12 says "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

And "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3: 28

The New Covenant is with all the elect, and the physical bloodline no longer exists. "3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?................"That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.".................."For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3

The doctrines of Christian Zionism are a direct opposition to several New Testament scriptures and therefore another Gospel (Galatians 1: 6-9, II Corinthians 11: 4).
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
At the time Jeremiah wrote, the New Covenant was to be created by Christ in the future.

Yes, and it still remains in the future:


"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more"
(Jer.31:31-34).​

In this passage we can see that the "fathers" of both the house of Israel and the house of Judah are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their "fathers" broke the LORD's covenant and it was the physical descendants of Jacob who did that.

So these verses prove that sometime in the FUTURE all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be saved.
 
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Interplanner

Well-known member
Yes, and it still remains in the future:


"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more"
(Jer.31:31-34).​

In this passage we can see that the "fathers" of both the house of Israel and the house of Judah are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their "fathers" broke the LORD's covenant and it was the physical descendants of Jacob who did that.

So these verses prove that sometime in the FUTURE all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be saved.



the covenant is eternal because THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS is a principal in it. The same who was called Melchizedek at one point (which trans as THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS).

As Rom 4, 9 and Gal 3 show, God accounts those who have faith as the seed of Abraham by the fact that they are IN CHRIST who is the Seed. That is why the NT freely refers to believers in Christ as those in the new covenant, if you have eyes to see.

2P2P / D'ism has all of these components mistaken.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
the covenant is eternal because THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS is a principal in it. The same who was called Melchizedek at one point (which trans as THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS).

Why did you not answer my point where I proved that Jeremiah 31:31-34 is speaking about a time when all of those belonging to the house of Judah and the house of Israel will be saved? And why did you not address the fact that they will all be the physical descendants of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob?

Of course there will come a time in the futre when all Israel will be saved and that is exactly what Paul is referring to here:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

All of this is so simple but for some reason it is all way above your head!
 
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Danoh

New member
Why did you not answer my point where I proved that Jeremiah 31:31-34 is speaking about a time when all of those belonging to the house of Judah and the house of Israel will be saved? And why did you not address the fact that they will all be the physical descendants of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob?

Of course there will come a time in the futre when all Israel will be saved and that is exactly what Paul is referring to here:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

All of this is so simple but for some reason it is all way above your head!

Exactly, and it is Corporate.

Unlike the sins of those Israelites (physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) who joined Peter into the Little Flock - whose sins were blotted out as individuals the very moment they believed that Jesus had been, was, is their Prophesied Christ - the nation (physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) gets its' sins blotted out AS A NATION at the 2nd Coming, when their NATION AS A WHOLE comes to belief that Jesus was, had been, is their Prophesied Christ.

The PROPHESIED aspect of "the gospel of Christ."
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Why did you not answer my point where I proved that Jeremiah 31:31-34 is speaking about a time when all of those belonging to the house of Judah and the house of Israel will be saved? And why did you not address the fact that they will all be the physical descendants of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob?

Of course there will come a time in the futre when all Israel will be saved and that is exactly what Paul is referring to here:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

All of this is so simple but for some reason it is all way above your head!

You are blind to how the Lord in this age is preparing the Kings and Priests for the coming age.

If you could see that then you would know that such people saved now are of the age to come and must needs be prepared by and in the same covenant.

However you reserve the new covenant for the Jews and invent a superior place for yourself which you claim is not the bride of Christ, but some other never mentioned from the beginning of creation as all other parties are.

You are in unbelief. Sincere, but unbelieving.

LA
 
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