Isn't it reasonable to doubt Young Earth Creationism?

[Stripe]

Have abortion, war and homosexuality affected or touched your life?

:doh:

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[JudgeRightly]

Have abortion, war and homosexuality affected or touched your life? Mine not. So its a very good world, even for those living in the ***** places of the world. Animals and plants too have a glorious life. But you can focus on the negative - that is God's gift to you.

Phl 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Abortion? My Dad's an OB/GYN, and we've had to move at least three times because they wanted him to teach or do abortions, and he wouldn't.

War? Have you traveled on a plane in the past 17 years?

Homosexuality? Every day, I hear at least one more story about a homo who was offended in some way or another.

Again, I ask, is abortion, war, or homosexuality "very good"?

 

[iouae]

Abortion? My Dad's an OB/GYN, and we've had to move at least three times because they wanted him to teach or do abortions, and he wouldn't.

War? Have you traveled on a plane in the past 17 years?

Homosexuality? Every day, I hear at least one more story about a homo who was offended in some way or another.

Again, I ask, is abortion, war, or homosexuality "very good"?

So you are not suffering at all, but crying a river.

 

[Derf]

Post the images here. I will do the same. We should post at the same time and then compare.

You game?

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I'd rather you explain why you think it would help. Is there something you don't agree with me about? please let me know.

 

[Derf]

Do you believe this world cannot be "very good" if there is death?

Every critter that lived and died should with its last breath praise and thank God for this very good world, and for every day they lived and enjoyed being alive. The alternative is to never have lived, which is very bad. All life is a great gift, and every day should be regarded as such.

Have you ever watched an animal die?
Have you ever killed an animal yourself?
Was it "very good"?

Keep in mind that I grow cattle to eat. I'm not a vegetarian. But when I have to kill an animal it bothers me. And when I killed an animal that I didn't need to kill, that I derived no benefit from killing, it bothered me. There's something bad about destroying one of God's creatures. Yet He gave them to us for food and clothing, among other things--though we only hear about theri use for clothing and food AFTER the fall.

Ask a person that has lost a dear pet how good it felt when they died.

Just because an animal praises and thanks God for the life they had, doesn't mean it is good that they die. Some men do that, too, but it isn't GOOD that they die, unless there's something BETTER about their death (like if they they gave their life to save someone else's life, or if they are expecting to see Jesus in the resurrection). That's why the birth of Jesus Christ, as well as His death and resurrection were GOOD news. It told us that death is not going to win. Death, apparently, is a bad thing in man. Why is it suddenly very good when we talk about it in animals?

 

[Derf]

There is only one all that concerns me for now, and that is did God make all in 6 days. I see clearly not.

I see logic in the creation week which all you YEC's don't.

A parent walks into their teenager's room and the place looks tohu and bohu like a bomb has hit it and the teen is asleep in bed. First thing the parent does is draw the blinds, switch on the light to see - and then tells the teen to clean up this devastation. Which is what God did.

Also, if one were to create heavenly bodies, earth, space and all would be created first, and at the same time logically. Just like God creates all land animals one day, sea animals the next. But before God utters one word like "Let..." there is already an earth - albeit tohu and bohu.

Let's be literal and say that in Gen 1:1 God ONLY made the heaven (second heaven - or space/time) and the earth. Then God by this description made earth "without form and void" meaning a bad job. Why? Why not just create it right, right from the start? And scripture says God did not make it tohu and bohu.

Why is it ok for you to say "death" is good, but it's not ok for God to start with a tohu and bohu world that He shapes and forms to what He wants? You don't even allow God to set the standard for what is good.

It seems to me that you know a whole lot more about how to create a world than God does.

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, H8414 he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Notice that the same word "tohu" or Strongs H8414 is used in Isa 45:18 as in Gen 1:2
And the earth was without form, H8414 and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

God DID NOT by His own words create the world "tohu".

God also took 6 days to create the world and everything in it. So if it was tohu and bohu after only 1 day, and He hadn't finished creating it, Is 45:18 doesn't apply yet. You make assumptions that you then take as fact, and it hampers your ability to see the real picture.

Because they ARE examples of limited all's. Find me an all that is not limited.

I gave you three. You chose to read them as limited all's because of your presuppositions. Unfortunately for you, the bible wasn't written with YOUR particular presuppositions in mind.

You make the mistake of folks who say God knows all things to include the unlimited future, which is not so. God does not even know all that I may choose to have in my next meal, because it is my choice. The Bible is FULL of examples of God not knowing what our choices will be till we make them, because God gave us free will.

It's nice of you to ascribe a belief system to me and then attack it.

Even with all todays technology, man has not even begun to subdue the earth, let alone survey the ocean depths etc. Thus even today it is far from an all all or inclusive all.

What does one have to do to "begin" to subdue the earth? Don't I "begin" to subdue the earth any time I rototill my garden and plant something? Don't I begin to subdue the earth when I burn rain forest area and plant crops or build a house there? Don't I begin to subdue the earth when I map it, so I can see where al the people are and where they aren't?

You're not making any sense.

Fine, then prove my point for me. God never gave them all dominion from the start, because they were limited to living in Eden, and afterwards they were limited to outside Eden. So both cases there were parts of the earth away from their dominion.

At no time did God say they everything they needed to do was already accomplished. They had work to do to subdue the earth. The all's are telling us where we get to subdue the earth, and nothing is held back from us until after the fall--we lost some dominion there.

The point is that God was speaking prior to the fall, and then the fall changed some things. The "all" is still an inclusive all when God said it--and He explained what He meant by saying there was some subduing that was still required. The dominion was given to us to exercise, not just to sit back and let come to us.

So now you think this prophecy refers to OEC's. What a laugh. It refers to the 5 unwise virgins who let their oil supply dwindle, because they thought the night the Lord returned would be like all past nights when He had not. BTW I am not holding my breath that Christ will return in my lifetime, because up to now all the false prophets proclaiming His imminent return have been wrong.

Laugh if you want. It's a pretty serious thing to ignore what God says and say you know better.

And now we wander off into a Terry Pratchet Diskworld where you make up rules you would like to apply to the past, without any need for evidence. Now we are fiction writing.

The non-fiction writing shows a world with world upon world of fossils all eating each other - worlds we have never seen because they are past worlds. That's called science - specifically palaeontology.



This is circular logic. If there is a fossil, it is because it died. If it died, it died before the fall, because before the fall, nothing died.

What? I was pretty obviously saying nothing died before the fall. So how did you get that I thought all fossils happened before the fall?

SAYS WHO? Certainly not Paul. Paul said death entered the world by one man, Adam - a stretch because it entered by one Woman, and Paul referred only to human death. And even then he was stretching it because lots died before Adam and Eve died, including the animal God killed to cloth them. So one could equally say death entered because God killed an animal. But I would be lying, because animals had been killing animals forever, and were doing so outside and inside Eden before the fall.

You would be lying because death didn't cause death. Sin caused death. and we have absolutely no record of anything dying before the first sin.

Folks have taken Paul's "Death entered by one man" and created a whole world of fiction around this to say not one leaf fell off a tree before Adam sinned. Ellen White wrote this, that as Adam sinned, the first leaf withered and fell off a tree. Nice fiction. I like fiction now and then, and there is a lot of it on TOL.

Another nice strawman. It is easily shown that God gave leaves and other greenery to the animals to eat, and some greenery to men to eat. And Adam and Eve knew how to eat before they ate of the wrong tree. Ellen White is not a very good yardstick for truth.

By your logic/fiction, yes, that logically follows, but in reality the past is as easy to read in the rocks as old light is to read from Hubble. Scientists understand what happened.

If they understand so much, how did the first life start?

Sorry, more Diskworld or YEC fiction. The cosmos looks like stars are forming and exploding and all the other good stuff science says is happening because stars ARE forming and exploding in supernovae, releasing heavier elements to make up elements heavier than iron, to give life. We are stardust.

Which star did we come from?

I appreciate the effort you put into your post, but we did not even make a dent in my limited alls. Find me an unlimited all in the Bible.

I gave you three. You have yet to show me why they are limited, except your belief system. You are using your beliefs to interpret the bible.

That's why I don't like to call Christians who are interested and trying "heretics" because it is a word suggestive of inquisition. I personally don't call YEC's heretics because it is quite possible to believe in Jesus and receive eternal life, and have a bad science education. After all, most of what we know today from palaeontology and cosmology was unknown to the early apostles.

I agree.

 

[Jonahdog]

Have you ever watched an animal die?
Have you ever killed an animal yourself?
Was it "very good"?

Keep in mind that I grow cattle to eat. I'm not a vegetarian. But when I have to kill an animal it bothers me. And when I killed an animal that I didn't need to kill, that I derived no benefit from killing, it bothered me. There's something bad about destroying one of God's creatures. Yet He gave them to us for food and clothing, among other things--though we only hear about theri use for clothing and food AFTER the fall.

Ask a person that has lost a dear pet how good it felt when they died.

Just because an animal praises and thanks God for the life they had, doesn't mean it is good that they die. Some men do that, too, but it isn't GOOD that they die, unless there's something BETTER about their death (like if they they gave their life to save someone else's life, or if they are expecting to see Jesus in the resurrection). That's why the birth of Jesus Christ, as well as His death and resurrection were GOOD news. It told us that death is not going to win. Death, apparently, is a bad thing in man. Why is it suddenly very good when we talk about it in animals?

I have been with a # of dogs and cats when vets put them down. And it was good, because the animal was suffering.
And now I'll hear that was because of The Fall---the suffering part. So man's mistake causes other creatures to suffer.
Interesting.

And just how does an animal "praise and thank God"?

 

[Derf]

I have been with a # of dogs and cats when vets put them down. And it was good, because the animal was suffering.
And now I'll hear that was because of The Fall---the suffering part. So man's mistake causes other creatures to suffer.
Interesting.

Your animals were suffering from something. Was that thing (in each case) good or bad?

And just how does an animal "praise and thank God"?

You'll have to ask [MENTION=17583]iouae[/MENTION]. It was his hypothetical.

 

[iouae]

Before the fall, nowhere were animals promised eternal life. Even humans had to eat of the tree of life to live. All animals outside Eden had no access to the Tree of Life. And there is no indication God ever promised animals eternal life, and we know animals are not promised a place in heaven.

So all animals were doomed from even before the fall. So it is better to die quickly than slowly and agonisingly of old age. Thus there is nothing wrong with predation, or euthanising an old, suffering dog. It is very good to do so, and yes, God even calls predation very good. I know that because predation has been around from the start. Nowhere does it say that outside Eden there was no predation.

 

[iouae]

Why is it ok for you to say "death" is good, but it's not ok for God to start with a tohu and bohu world that He shapes and forms to what He wants? You don't even allow God to set the standard for what is good.

God says He did not start with a tohu world in Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, H8414 he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.


"In vain" is "tohu".

Earth was already created by Gen 1:1.

 

[Derf]

God says He did not start with a tohu world in Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, H8414 he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

You've interpreted Genesis and Exodus in terms of Isaiah. Why not interpret Isaiah in terms of Genesis and Exodus?

 

[Derf]

Before the fall, nowhere were animals promised eternal life. Even humans had to eat of the tree of life to live. All animals outside Eden had no access to the Tree of Life. And there is no indication God ever promised animals eternal life, and we know animals are not promised a place in heaven.

So all animals were doomed from even before the fall. So it is better to die quickly than slowly and agonisingly of old age. Thus there is nothing wrong with predation, or euthanising an old, suffering dog. It is very good to do so, and yes, God even calls predation very good. I know that because predation has been around from the start. Nowhere does it say that outside Eden there was no predation.

I'll reiterate what you said here, so you can understand your circular logic.

"Predation has been around from the start.
I know that because predation has been around from the start."

See any problems with that logic? If you're not seeing it in your post, you should look a little harder.

 

[iouae]

What? I was pretty obviously saying nothing died before the fall. So how did you get that I thought all fossils happened before the fall?

I had written "This is circular logic. If there is a fossil, it is because it died. If it died, it died before the fall, because before the fall, nothing died."

What I meant to say was "If it died, it died AFTER the fall, because before the fall, nothing died."

YEC's say there is no evidence of a biome containing no carnivores because before the fall, nothing died or killed its prey. Yet the rocks show no evidence of a world without predation. The rocks speak against YEC and a supposed pre-fall state. Only in Eden, for a short while was there no predation. In my back garden today, the same state exists because I keep out all predators.

 

[iouae]

I'll reiterate what you said here, so you can understand your circular logic.

"Predation has been around from the start.
I know that because predation has been around from the start."

See any problems with that logic? If you're not seeing it in your post, you should look a little harder.

When Paul calls death an enemy, he is speaking exclusively to human eternal death. Animals can die, and it can be "very good" - because animals were created mortal. Humans too can die and it can still be "very good". When things operate as God designed them, it's "very good".

Even if a man rejects Christ, he has lived like every animal, a "very good" life, for which he, like animals, should be thankful. All life is "very good" compared with the alternative which is to never have existed. God rejoiced at the abundance of life which He created, calling it "very good". Mortal and immortal life are both "very good".

And folks who bemoan the earth today are looking at the one bad thing, ignoring the 1000 great things going on around them.

 

[Ktoyou]

Maybe those who reject Christ will grow tails?

 

[Derf]

I had written "This is circular logic. If there is a fossil, it is because it died. If it died, it died before the fall, because before the fall, nothing died."

What I meant to say was "If it died, it died AFTER the fall, because before the fall, nothing died."

YEC's say there is no evidence of a biome containing no carnivores because before the fall, nothing died or killed its prey. Yet the rocks show no evidence of a world without predation. The rocks speak against YEC and a supposed pre-fall state. Only in Eden, for a short while was there no predation. In my back garden today, the same state exists because I keep out all predators.

Thanks for the clarification. That makes more sense.

I'll state it a different way. There's no evidence in the bible that anything died before the fall. That doesn't mean nothing died, it only means the bible doesn't talk about it.

In addition, the bible talks about death entering the world because of Adam's sin. It is not clear from that whether "death" means "human death" or just any kind of death, but it seems pretty clear that no humans died before Adam sinned.

Finally, if "creation groans" because of Adam's sin, what does that mean?
[Rom 8:19 KJV] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
[Rom 8:20 KJV] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
[Rom 8:21 KJV] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[Rom 8:22 KJV] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[Rom 8:23 KJV] And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Something new is going to happen to creatures when the sons of God are revealed (red).
The whole creation is subject to this "pain".
We also which have the first fruits of the Spirit (Christians and also the children of God who are not fully revealed) are also still groaning.

What are we waiting for? the redemption of the body, or a body that does not die.
If all creation is groaning together and waiting for the same thing, it is at least a good possibility that the rest of creation will experience some kind of change to the way things work. I submit that at that time, perhaps creation will not be subject to death anymore.

I don't think that's the same thing as saying that animals will be redeemed, or that animals will be resurrected. But it could be that animals will no longer die.

 

[Derf]

Maybe those who reject Christ will grow tails?

 

[Derf]

When Paul calls death an enemy, he is speaking exclusively to human eternal death. Animals can die, and it can be "very good" - because animals were created mortal. Humans too can die and it can still be "very good". When things operate as God designed them, it's "very good".

Even if a man rejects Christ, he has lived like every animal, a "very good" life, for which he, like animals, should be thankful. All life is "very good" compared with the alternative which is to never have existed. God rejoiced at the abundance of life which He created, calling it "very good". Mortal and immortal life are both "very good".

And folks who bemoan the earth today are looking at the one bad thing, ignoring the 1000 great things going on around them.

Apparently you decided not to look a little harder.

 

[Stripe]

I'd rather you explain why you think it would help. Is there something you don't agree with me about? please let me know.

Sure. There are two firmaments. The first was created within the primordial ocean, the second is the firmament "of the heavens."

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[iouae]

What are we waiting for? the redemption of the body, or a body that does not die.
If all creation is groaning together and waiting for the same thing, it is at least a good possibility that the rest of creation will experience some kind of change to the way things work. I submit that at that time, perhaps creation will not be subject to death anymore.

I don't think that's the same thing as saying that animals will be redeemed, or that animals will be resurrected. But it could be that animals will no longer die.

Or it could be that God intended from the start to fry the whole earth with all its mortal plants and animals, and then have New Jerusalem come down from heaven.

2Pe 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Jesus himself cursed fig trees and allowed demons to drive pigs over a cliff. I really think we have to get over the idea that all death has to be bad. Look at the OT with its death penalty for dozens of crimes - all commanded by God.

And lets not forget the flood - where a whole earth full of innocent animals was killed off by none other than God.