Isn't it reasonable to doubt Young Earth Creationism?

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
So how would one tell the difference between evolution that's guided by God and evolution that isn't?
I don't know that we necessarily would. That said, I also think that we might know more if we had a better understanding of how long it takes for things to evolve from a single something to the complex multi celled creatures of today. Each mutation can be good, bad or neutral. What is the rate of each one of these mutations? In other words, does any single mutation have an equal probability (1/3) of being good, bad or neutral or are the probabilities different? Does the probability change as an organism becomes more complex? How often to mutations occur? (By this I mean mutations that represent a significant change, not just mutations that account for eye color or slightly differing characteristics in a species. Something the results in a new beak better suited for the food in the area.)


What exactly do you mean by "designed"? What role do you believe God played in the process?
By designed I mean Somebody sat down and thought about it. God would be that somebody who designed DNA such that it operate the way we have observed.


Keep in mind that life has been around for ~4 billion years. That's a ridiculously long time. And every single replication event that's ever occurred is a new random trial. So the answer is....yes, definetely.

I accept this as an unsupported assertion. I do not know when the first life appeared. We have speculation but I am unaware of any additional evidence. Secondly, as noted above, I do not know how it takes for evolution to occur. How many generations does it take for a single allele to become the typical phenotype? How long does it take to develop a digestive tract? A skeleton? Muscles? Eyes? A nervous System? A circulatory System? And how long does it take to "figure out" how to make all of those systems work together to do something interesting (This means that all of these systems MUST be evolving at the same time.)? And finally, how long does it take to "figure out" how take all of the information, split it half, and put half in an egg and half in a sperm? I am an engineer so when I look at the question of evolution I break it down into smaller components and ask questions about the smaller pieces. That tends to leave me with a lot of questions for which I have not found satisfactory answers.
 

Stuu

New member
I know. You want the ideas you hate to disappear. You're a coward. A real man would engage rationally, not gloat over the relative popularity of what he believes.
I think bad ideas deserve to disappear, don't you? How is it cowardice to challenge bad ideas? Isn't the 'real man' claim the same as the 'No True Scotsman' claim? Wouldn't the popularity of ideas tend to go against what I promote within the ToL community of posters? I'm obviously not out to become popular here!
That's what it's all about: Evidence.
So, are you serious about that? What is your reaction when there is unambiguous evidence against what you claim? Your kneejerk response is dunno, or :mock:, which is unambiguous evidence that you are not serious about evidence.

Wake us up when you're willing to engage sensibly over it.
You'd be hard pressed to find a post in which I don't engage very seriously over questions where there is relevant empirical evidence. For example, you assert that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. So when I present you with the evidence that in both the fields of dendrochronology and ice cores, you can literally count back more years than that, then what reaction do I get? No analysis of those facts whatsoever, but just the hurt evident in your apparently throwing of the toys out of the cot, which you appear to do on a regular basis in regards to me in particular.

Stuu: Can you play the ball, not the man? Or is every kick at the ball a personal attack on your shins?
What is that? Soccer? Aren't you a Hurricanes fan?
It's a serious question. Are you able to see the difference between your personal integrity and the robust discussion of ideas? If you can't, what are you doing posting on a website dedicated to discussion of the two topics that you should never bring up in polite society?

Stuart
 

Stuu

New member
I am an engineer so when I look at the question of evolution I break it down into smaller components and ask questions about the smaller pieces. That tends to leave me with a lot of questions for which I have not found satisfactory answers.
Many of the 'professional' creationists who claim STEM qualifications are engineers. In the same way that if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, do you think it is possible that engineers are more likely to see some celestial engineer at work, instead of entirely natural forces?

If we break down the problem of the 'engineering' of animals, then the biochemistry aspect is spectacularly good, but much of the mechanical engineering is lousy. I give you the example of the recurrent laryngeal nerve in the giraffe, which is a nice example of natural selection in action, but an example of engineering that would warrant a recall...or a firing.

Stuart
 

Stuu

New member
Awww Stuu... you are so sweet, not wanting to annihilate Stripe personally... just the ideas that you don't like?
One of the serious problems with islam is that so many of its followers are encouraged to make their religion the same thing as their personal identities. So if you criticise the ideas of islam, it is the same as making a personal attack. You seem to be suggesting that is how it should be. I don't know Stripe outside our interactions on ToL, so Idon't know what motive you think could I possibly have except to engage with the ideas discussed here. Play the ball not the man.
The breeder eliminates unwanted, pre-existing genetic info. It is a process that may benefit the breeder, but causes a loss of genetic info to the animal or plant.
So you were not discussing natural selection, it was about artificial selection, right?

Stuu: There you go. Seemed is a personal construction.
Yes... I agree. When a detective sees someone with a smoking gun standing over a dead body, it seems reasonable to suspect the person with the gun
In this case there is nothing to be seen. No suspect is apparent. Of course you could look for a bullet in the body, but the body has no bullets in it. This body died of natural causes. And that is the conclusion you draw once you have fully investigated, with evidence, that which seemed to be true prima facie. Have you ever considered whether there is actually no shooter? I can't think of a good reason to believe there is one. There are no bullets or smoking guns.
So, it seems like nothing created everything?
You are still using 'seems' without analysing using evidence.

Stuart
 

6days

New member
Stuu said:
I give you the example of the recurrent laryngeal nerve in the giraffe, which is a nice example of natural selection in action, but an example of engineering that would warrant a recall...or a firing.
Haha... sounds like the same (failed) arguments evolutionists made about inverted retina design.... appendix... psuedogenes... human recurrent laryngeal nerve... non coding DNA... ETC... ETC... ETC


Stuu.... if you use poor design as an argument against a designer, then surely you agree good design is evidence supporting a designer??


Or do you think the evidence supports your belief system no matter how good or how bad you imagine the design to be?
 

Stuu

New member
[MENTION=9611]Stuu[/MENTION]

Here's an article you might be interested in, concerning 14C.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0019445

Nearly 5% of modern 14C was found in a supposedly 80 million year old Mosasaur fossil. Yet 14C is supposed to decay away in less than 100,000 years.
"Likewise, the amount of finite carbon was exceedingly small, corresponding to 4.68%±0.1 of modern 14C activity (yielding an age of 24 600 BP), and most likely reflect bacterial activity near the outer surface of the bone (although no bacterial proteins or hopanoids were detected, one bacterial DNA sequence was amplified by PCR, and microscopic clusters of bone-boring cyanobacteria were seen in places along the perimeter of the diaphyseal cortex). Two short DNA sequences of possible lagomorph origin were amplified by PCR (together with three human sequences), and consequently it is possible that the outer surface of the bone has been painted with animal glue at some point."

They have explained the presence of young carbon, and the reason to do 14-C dating on the fossil is not to find out how old the fossil is, but to identify the carbon-containing material that has been added more recently. They are allowed to assume that cretaceous fossils have no 14-C in them and the young carbon comes from other sources. That's because it is well-established by other experiments that mosasaurs went extinct 66 million years ago.

Stuart
 

Jose Fly

New member
What [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] indicated is atheists who were unwilling to follow evidence that seemed to lead to an omnipotent Creator. Atheists can't consider God as a possibility... or they aren't atheists anymore.

Well now you're back to where you left off in Clete's legs thread....complaining about science being science, rather than religion.
 

Stuu

New member
The so-called big bang thing happened in a physical universe.

Are you claiming this physical universe has always existed?

What is your evidence for that?
The Big Bang wasn't an explosion into spacetime. It was the inflation of spacetime. The original centre of the Big Bang now exists everywhere in the universe.

The evidence for that is mainly in the appearance and frequency of the cosmic background radiation. The further out into space you look, the further back in time you are looking, so the furthest things are 13.7 billion years old. We know that because you could predict that with the expansion of space, the light waves from the approximate time of the Big Bang would be spread out, and the wavelength of the light would become longer, down into the microwave part of the spectrum. And that is exactly where the cosmic background radiation has been found, in the microwave region.

If you turn on your TV on analogue reception and detune it away from any stations, something like 5% of the black and white fuzz you see is cosmic background radiation.

You can watch the Big Bang on TV!

Stuart
 

Jose Fly

New member
I don't know that we necessarily would.
And that to me is why I consider theistic evolutionists to be more in the "evolutionist" camp than in the "creationist" camp. They tend to believe in a type of evolution that, from a practical standpoint, is indistinguishable from purely natural evolution. And as such, they're far less likely to lobby school boards and otherwise undermine science education.

That said, I also think that we might know more if we had a better understanding of how long it takes for things to evolve from a single something to the complex multi celled creatures of today. Each mutation can be good, bad or neutral. What is the rate of each one of these mutations? In other words, does any single mutation have an equal probability (1/3) of being good, bad or neutral or are the probabilities different? Does the probability change as an organism becomes more complex? How often to mutations occur? (By this I mean mutations that represent a significant change, not just mutations that account for eye color or slightly differing characteristics in a species. Something the results in a new beak better suited for the food in the area.)
Those are all very good questions. But honestly, I'm not here to teach a course in evolutionary biology, so I'd say if you're truly interested in those questions you should take a course at a nearby university, or at least read some of the better books written for a lay audience.

By designed I mean Somebody sat down and thought about it. God would be that somebody who designed DNA such that it operate the way we have observed.
And that's consistent with what I said above. Thanks for clarifying.

I accept this as an unsupported assertion. I do not know when the first life appeared. We have speculation but I am unaware of any additional evidence.
CLICK HERE to get a very basic rundown of the current state of the issue. I also urge you to click the links embedded in that article and read the material they're summarizing.

But as you can see, at the very least life has been on earth for well over 3 billion years.

Secondly, as noted above, I do not know how it takes for evolution to occur. How many generations does it take for a single allele to become the typical phenotype? How long does it take to develop a digestive tract? A skeleton? Muscles? Eyes? A nervous System? A circulatory System? And how long does it take to "figure out" how to make all of those systems work together to do something interesting (This means that all of these systems MUST be evolving at the same time.)? And finally, how long does it take to "figure out" how take all of the information, split it half, and put half in an egg and half in a sperm? I am an engineer so when I look at the question of evolution I break it down into smaller components and ask questions about the smaller pieces. That tends to leave me with a lot of questions for which I have not found satisfactory answers.
As I suggested above, if you're truly interested in those questions you should enroll in an evolutionary biology course, or read some books on evolutionary biology written for general audiences.

Also THIS WEBSITE covers the basics of evolutionary biology and is a decent place to start.
 

6days

New member
Stuu said:
6days said:
The breeder eliminates unwanted, pre-existing genetic info. It is a process that may benefit the breeder, but causes a loss of genetic info to the animal or plant.
So you were not discussing natural selection, it was about artificial selection, right?
Natural selection can only eliminate what already exists. It causes a loss of genetic variation. (Natural and artificial)

Stuu said:
6days said:
Yes... I agree. When a detective sees someone with a smoking gun standing over a dead body, it seems reasonable to suspect the person with the gun

In this case there is nothing to be seen. No suspect is apparent.
Wrong. If a detective sees a person with a smoking g gun standing over a body... it's reasonable to suspect the person with the gun.

Stuu said:
[

Of course you could look for a bullet in the body, but the body has no bullets in it. This body died of natural causes.
Very good! Be willing to follow the evidence where it leads. But... the body is riddled with bullet holes and evidence. You are ignoring the bullet holes and wondering if maybe the victim had a cold
 

Stuu

New member
Haha... sounds like the same (failed) arguments evolutionists made about inverted retina design.... appendix... psuedogenes... human recurrent laryngeal nerve... non coding DNA... ETC... ETC... ETC
Get back to us when your prostate gland is swelling and urination is difficult, two functions that no engineer would combine like that. By the way, do you actually have an explanation for the outrageous recurrent laryngeal nerve in the giraffe? Has Creation or ICR or AiG come up with a good excuse yet? It is entirely, and elegantly explained by natural selection.

Stuu.... if you use poor design as an argument against a designer, then surely you agree good design is evidence supporting a designer??Or do you think the evidence supports your belief system no matter how good or how bad you imagine the design to be?
It's not an argument against a designer, it's only an argument against an omniscient and omnipotent designer with genuine intent. It could be that we are dealing with a lousy designer, or an unreliable designer, or a whole committee of designers, some of which are good and others poor,or an evil designer. Given the good and poor 'design' we see, which of those options would you favour?

Obviously to conclude that there is a designer, which is a different question, we would need unambigous evidence of the existence of one, say a photograph of the designer working in its office, for example. Do you have a photograph? If not, why not?

Stuart
 

Stuu

New member
Natural selection can only eliminate what already exists. It causes a loss of genetic variation. (Natural and artificial)
Yes. But it would be quite dishonest just to leave the whole thing there, wouldn't it.

Wrong. If a detective sees a person with a smoking g gun standing over a body... it's reasonable to suspect the person with the gun.
So you have seen a celestial designer designing, then? You saw with your own eyes it standing at its celestial drawing board, drawing a massively long recurrent laryngeal nerve in the anatomical plans for a giraffe?

Very good! Be willing to follow the evidence where it leads. But... the body is riddled with bullet holes and evidence. You are ignoring the bullet holes and wondering if maybe the victim had a cold
I have thought carefully about this question, and I hope you have too. Now, just because I have failed to come up with a single good reason for believing there is a creator god in the universe does not mean there isn't one.

But I have never read a good reason given by anyone else.

Do you have a good reason for believing there is a creator god, one that I should be convinced by?

Stuart
 

Lon

Well-known member
If you don't read past the first few lines, then yes that is what it says. But go further down:

Younger Americans -- who are typically less religious than their elders -- are less likely to choose the creationist perspective than are older Americans. Americans aged 65 and older -- the most religious of any age group -- are most likely to choose the creationist perspective.

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You can see in that table that the 18-29 respondents who are willing to use the word 'evolution' in the description of their beliefs totals 65%, more than twice as many as identify with young earth creationism. Meantime, 50% of 65+ year olds are still on for YEC. So that is the nature of the radical change: the young are abandoning both christianity and creationism. So the 42% figure is not that relevant to the discussion because, as you will recall, it was about 'the kids', who are turning their backs on it relative to the population in general, which was the point I was making.

Stuart
Ages change. Kids are bombarded in school and college. They have to have time to jell what they believe. All you are seeing is where they have always been: wrestling with authority statements in their lives, just like you did (or should have had the opportunity to do). Again, no change, Stuart. You have to read what the author himself is telling you, not what you are wishful for.
 

Derf

Well-known member
You claimed those two articles constitute evidence that should cause one to reject evolution. I read them, and being a biologist, understood them. What I didn't understand is why you cited them as somehow being contrary to evolution. So I asked you to explain why you think that. Since then you've done everything you can to avoid answering/explaining.

If you don't know and can't explain, man up and just say so.

I guess I'm not surprised that you, being a[n evolutionary] biologist, would understand them. What I am surprised about is that you, being an intelligent human being, can't understand what I'm saying about the articles. What I said is that the articles themselves are illustrating the contradiction of evolutionary thought with scientific results. The articles are doing this. They do it in the titles, and they do it in the text. The authors of the study are doing this, too. I don't have to, because they are doing it. If you want, we can go through the articles, but I'm convinced that you won't be convinced. Sorry for such pessimistic skepticism, but I've got to tell you what I see in your posts.

So let's start with this one: ScienceDaily: The Tree of Life may be more like a bush?

Let's first note the title. You understand, I'm sure, that the idea of the tree of life is that as organisms propagate, they have offspring that is dissimilar enough to the parent that they can be called a different species. This may take a good number of generations, but eventually the offspring are different enough. As this happens over and over to a particular starting organism, its offspring can continue to diversify. Thus, for any one starting organism (or pair of organisms, if necessary), it's descendants ascend (irony intended) to different and better capabilities. This is illustrated by a single trunk of a "tree" branching out into many branches. Like a tree. That's what "tree of life" means. Do you understand that, Mr. Biologist?
Ok.

Let's move on to the first paragraph:

New species evolve whenever a lineage splits off into several. Because of this, the kinship between species is often described in terms of a 'tree of life', where every branch constitutes a species. Now, researchers at Uppsala University have found that evolution is more complex than this model would have it, and that the tree is actually more akin to a bush.


What this is saying is that the tree of life concept predicts that species will bring forth other species in a linear fashion--with each branch separately branching off further. But Uppsala researchers have found something that doesn't hold to the simple tree of life concept. They distinguish this new concept by claiming it's more of a "bush of life". Are we still doing ok, Mr. Biologist, or is this getting too tedious for you, too?

Second paragraph:

Less than a year ago, a consortium of some hundred researchers reported that the relationship between all major bird clades had been mapped out by analysing the complete genome of around 50 bird species. This included the exact order in which the various lineages had diverged.


This paragraph explains how a bunch ("consortium") of scientists mapped out the order of evolution of 50 bird species with respect to one another, including the "exact order" they had diverged in. They did this using the genome (pronounced "GEE nohm"), along with an assumption of how things diverge, which came from their understanding of how organisms evolve in a tree-like fashion. We can call that assumption a "premise"--which is a presumed or previously proved supposition.

We might take a minute here to talk about premises and conclusions (see how tedious this is getting?) If logic is faithfully applied, true premises lead to correct conclusions. The converse (not the shoe type! stay with me) is that if a conclusion is false, and the logic is faithful, the premise must be false.

Let's move on to paragraph 3:

Since then, two of the members of the consortium, Alexander Suh and Hans Ellegren at the Uppsala University Evolutionary Biology Centre, have expanded upon this model by analysing the avian genome through a new method, which hinges on so-called 'jumping genes'. Their results paint a partially contrasting picture of the kinship between the various species.

Two members of the original bunch ("consortium") have looked at the 50 species in another way ("method") which tells a different story ("partially contrasting picture") about how these species are interrelated ("kinship").

Paragraph 4:

'We can see that the very rapid rate at which various bird species started evolving once the dinosaurs went extinct, i.e. around 65 million years ago, meant that the genome failed to split into separate lineages during the process of speciation', Hans Ellegren says.

Here our buddy Hans says that things didn't go as originally thought ("failed to split into separate lineages"). This is the author of a follow-up study saying the first consensus was really a faulty conclusion.

Remember our little talk about faulty conclusions? Now we have one, at least according to the Uppsala guys. Let's assume for a moment that the consortium's logic was impeccable. That would mean that there was a faulty premise that lead to the faulty conclusion. What was that faulty premise? That life diverges like a tree branching.

They go on to give their solution to the puzzle--jumping genes. This is an interesting concept that brings to light another failed evolutionary concept, since jumping genes were at one time considered junk DNA. Now they use their conclusion to falsify (if it hadn't already been falsified) the junk DNA status of transposable elements. You probably remember that junk DNA was a prediction of many evolutionists. Or do you, as a biologist, also "understand" how massive amounts of junk DNA could be predicted, and falsified, and yet still have absolutely no bearing on the veracity of the theory of evolution?

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...
Jumping genes are the supposed solution to the conundrum that "for instance, a cuckoo can be more closely related to a hummingbird than a pigeon in a certain part of its genome, while the opposite holds true in another part." In other words, the cuckoo looks like it descended from a hummingbird (or vice versa) if you look at one part of the genome, and from a pigeon (or vice versa) when you look at another part, BECAUSE that's what the genome says! Which can't be if species descend in a linear branching pattern. Thus the authors say the "tree" looks more like a "bush". Jumping genes allow us to consider that species are descended from a single progenitor through a tangled mess of relationships where branches reconnect and divide again. And "transposable elements" go back and forth, thus needing the prefix "retro" added on.

Oh yeah, that brings up another prediction of evolution--that it only goes one way. I think it's called Dollo's law: "An organism is unable to return, even partially, to a previous stage already realized in the ranks of its ancestors."—*Dollo, quoted in "Ammonites, Indicates Reversal," in Nature, March 21, 1970. (which I quoted from a google search)

Remember that genetics was the savior of Darwin's theory, becoming the foundation of the "modern synthesis" of the theory of evolution. But now, as we see in the article, scientists have to use words like "incomplete lineage sorting" to express a concept that says the genetics aren't obeying the theory.

Does that make you happy? I'm so glad! Now I'll sit back and let you tell me how wrong I am, and how evolution wasn't damaged at all by the results of the article's subject study, and how all these missed predictions were really successful predictions of science.
 

Stuu

New member
Ages change. Kids are bombarded in school and college. They have to have time to jell what they believe. All you are seeing is where they have always been: wrestling with authority statements in their lives, just like you did (or should have had the opportunity to do). Again, no change, Stuart. You have to read what the author himself is telling you, not what you are wishful for.
You have a strange way of saying, 'Ok, I see what you mean, the difference between the 65+ age group and it's 50% belief in creationism, and the 18-29 group (all of whom are adults) and its 28% belief in creationism, is quite radically large.'

Stuart
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Yes. Let me type out for you the only historically reliable story of Jesus there is:

Jesus very probably existed. There is a good case for him having been baptised by John the Baptist. It is quite likely he was executed by the Romans.


Stuart

I would disagree strongly with you that the New Testament as it is today isn't a reliable account of Jesus' life. That's up for debate, I understand that, but most scholars would back me if I'm not mistaken
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Many of the 'professional' creationists who claim STEM qualifications are engineers. In the same way that if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, do you think it is possible that engineers are more likely to see some celestial engineer at work, instead of entirely natural forces?

If we break down the problem of the 'engineering' of animals, then the biochemistry aspect is spectacularly good, but much of the mechanical engineering is lousy. I give you the example of the recurrent laryngeal nerve in the giraffe, which is a nice example of natural selection in action, but an example of engineering that would warrant a recall...or a firing.

Stuart

You misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't attempting to evaluate a biological system from and engineering prospective. Rather, I was asking what it would take for a given system to evolve into what we see today. The next layer is to ask what does it take for two system to develop simultaneously with the same organism. Finally, I was considering parallel evolution of entirely different species into a unique symbiotic life cycle.
 

Stuu

New member
I would disagree strongly with you that the New Testament as it is today isn't a reliable account of Jesus' life. That's up for debate, I understand that, but most scholars would back me if I'm not mistaken
It depends what you mean by scholar. If you mean people who know a lot but are committed to a tradition view of scripture, then probably all of them would agree with you.

But if you mean proper historians, then most of them would disagree with you. What I presented to you before is essentially the scholarly consensus on Jesus.

Your first problem, I think, is the fantasy notion that you could know anything about Jesus's early life. The gospel accounts are impossible, historically, with the reign of Herod and the Census of Quirinius not coinciding historically. So we know that is definitely wrong. Next, an historian would rubbish the idea that the Romans ever demanded that people make some special journey to complete a census. So the picture that begins to build up is one of a real historical Jesus, whose actual life story did not fit ancient Jewish prophecy, so they made up a story to justify that prophecy. And it looks to me like the rest of the accounts of Jesus's life follow exactly that same pattern. In the absence of any known eyewitness accounts of Jesus, and especially no other accounts independent of the claims made by christians either, it is laughable that you could read the gospels and think you were actually reading the literal (or translated) words of Jesus.

As I'm sure you are aware, there are scholars (again, of a particular kind) who make a strong case against the historical existence of Jesus at all. I think a clearer deduction would be that Jesus was a real man but his story is mostly invented, years after his death. That's based on the story of baptising a sinless man, a point where christians make a claim against their own interests, and on the apparent invention of a story to place him in Bethlehem, which would not have been necessary had there been no real Jesus.

Stuart
 

jsanford108

New member
Where did you say how 'god' did anything?

How do you have light separate from the processes that create light, then 'put it into' a star so it can come out again? How did your god do that?
How is can light go at different speeds in different directions? How does your god make that happen?

Your answer remains 'goddidit.

Stuart

What is your explanation?
 
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