Isaiah 7 study; "Behold the young woman is pregnant..."

[Elia]

Bs"d


1: In the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, son of Uzzi'ah, king of Judah, Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remali'ah the king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but they could not conquer it. 2: When the house of David was told, "Syria is in league with E'phraim," his heart and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind. 3: And Y-H-W-H said to Isaiah, "Go forth to meet Ahaz, you and She'ar-jash'ub your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Fuller's Field, 4: and say to him, `Take heed, be quiet, do not fear, and do not let your heart be faint because of these two smoldering stumps of firebrands, at the fierce anger of Rezin and Syria and the son of Remali'ah. 5: Because Syria, with E'phraim and the son of Remali'ah, has devised evil against you, saying, 6: "Let us go up against Judah and terrify it, and let us conquer it for ourselves, and set up the son of Ta'be-el as king in the midst of it," 7: thus says the Lord Y-H-W-H: It shall not stand, and it shall not come to pass.
8: For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin. (Within sixty-five years E'phraim will be broken to pieces so that it will no longer be a people.) 9: And the head of E'phraim is Sama'ria, and the head of Sama'ria is the son of Remali'ah. If you will not believe, surely you shall not be established.'" 10: Again Y-H-W-H spoke to Ahaz,
11: "Ask a sign of Y-H-W-H your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven." 12: But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not put Y-H-W-H to the test." 13: And he said, "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? 14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

We see here in Isaiah 7, that king Achaz, the king of Judah, is afraid of two neighboring kings.
It is important to know that after the death of king Solomo the kingdom of Israel split up into two parts; into the kingdom of Judah, and the kingdom of Israel.
The kingdom om Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and a part of the Levites. The kingdom of Israel was made up of the other ten tribes.
Achaz was king over Judah, and in this prophecy the king of Israel is Pekah, the son of Remaliah.
And Pekah had made a covenant with the king of Syria, called Resin, to attack together the kingdom of Judah.
This news caused king Achaz considerable stress, because he had a dark suspicion that things could very well turn out not so very rosy for him.
Therefore God sent Isaiah to Achaz, in order to tell him that things would work out just fine for him. God tells Achaz that he will give him a sign. Here is the sign: "14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman is pregnant and is giving birth to a son, and she called his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

God says that before the child of the young woman who is pregnant will grow up, the land of the two kings, Resin of Syria, and Pekah of Israel, will be deserted, that is devoid of people. Those two nations will be led into exile.
So this is a sign for king Achaz, who lived about 700 years before JC.

And the Bible tells us that this prophecy came true: "27: In the fifty-second year of Azari'ah king of Judah Pekah the son of Remali'ah began to reign over Israel in Sama'ria, and reigned twenty years. 28: And he did what was evil in the sight of the LORD; he did not depart from the sins of Jerobo'am the son of Nebat, which he made Israel to sin. 29: In the days of Pekah king of Israel Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria came and captured I'jon, A'bel-beth-ma'acah, Jan-o'ah, Kedesh, Hazor, Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naph'tali; and he carried the people captive to Assyria. 30: Then Hoshe'a the son of Elah made a conspiracy against Pekah the son of Remali'ah, and struck him down, and slew him, and reigned in his stead, in the twentieth year of Jotham the son of Uzzi'ah."
II Kings 15.

We see here that the population of Israel indeed went into exile, and that the land of king Pekah was deserted.

And here is what happened to Resin, the king of Syria:
"6: At that time the king of Edom recovered Elath for Edom, and drove the men of Judah from Elath; and the E'domites came to Elath, where they dwell to this day. 7: So Ahaz sent messengers to Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria, saying, "I am your servant and your son. Come up, and rescue me from the hand of the king of Syria and from the hand of the king of Israel, who are attacking me." 8: Ahaz also took the silver and gold that was found in the house of the LORD and in the treasures of the king's house, and sent a present to the king of Assyria. 9: And the king of Assyria hearkened to him; the king of Assyria marched up against Damascus, and took it, carrying its people captive to Kir, and he killed Rezin."
II Kings 16.

So here we see that also the inhabitants of the land of King Resin went into exile, and also his land was deserted, in the days of Achaz.

So God gave a sign to Achaz.

In the days of Achaz.

About 700 years before JC.

So this prophecy has no bearing what so ever on the messiah, and NOWHERE in this prophecy is spoken about a virgin.

These are only misconceptions of the NT.

However, the NT brings this prophecy to Achaz as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 1 "21: she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." 22: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel".

So what the NT does here, is taking a text which does not speak about the messiah, ripping it out of context, mistranslating it, (is says "young woman", and not "virgin") and then presenting it to us as a messianic prophecy.

So one of the foundations of the Christian religion, the virgin birth, is based upon a mistranslated text which is ripped out of context and does NOT speak about the messiah.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[jamie]

So what the NT does here, is taking a text which does not speak about the messiah, ripping it out of context, mistranslating it, (is says "young woman", and not "virgin") and then presenting it to us as a messianic prophecy.

Are you saying a young woman who has never known a man cannot be a virgin?

 

[Spitfire]

Was it uncommon for unmarried young women (or "women kept close" if you will) to be virgins in ancient Israel?

 

[Nick M]

So one of the foundations of the Christian religion, the virgin birth, is based upon a mistranslated text which is ripped out of context and does NOT speak about the messiah.

A young woman being pregnant is not a miraculous sign you nitwit. That would be normal. A virgin being pregnant would be a miraculous sign.

 

[Elia]

Are you saying a young woman who has never known a man cannot be a virgin?

Bs"d

No, I'm not saying that.

Just like I'm not saying that a young woman cannot be blind with only one leg. That is also possible.
But the idea would never come up in me to start translating the word for young woman as "the blind young woman with only one leg".
This despite the fact that it is possible.

 

[Elia]

A young woman being pregnant is not a miraculous sign you nitwit. That would be normal. A virgin being pregnant would be a miraculous sign.

Bs"d

And how would the general populace know that the young woman who was pregnant was a virgin?
When she was about to give birth, did the whole village come to look between her legs to see if the hymen was still intact?
Or did they just have to take her word for it?

In short: How can a virgin birth be a sign??

It cannot.

So what was the sign? Not a young woman giving birth, that is a very normal occurence.

The sign was that before the young woman would give birth, the land of the two kings for whom Achaz was in dread, would be deserted, their population having been led into exile.

And that happened.

And so the sign was fulfilled.

"Therefore Y-H-W-H himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."





"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Nick M]

And how would the general populace know that the young woman who was pregnant was a virgin?

Tell God you don't approve of his signs.

 

[OCTOBER23]

The Pharasees knew of the Birth of JESUS and ridiculed him.

John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him,

We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;

a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet,

and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:

and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

[patrick jane]

Bs"d


1: In the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, son of Uzzi'ah, king of Judah, Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remali'ah the king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but they could not conquer it. 2: When the house of David was told, "Syria is in league with E'phraim," his heart and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind. 3: And Y-H-W-H said to Isaiah, "Go forth to meet Ahaz, you and She'ar-jash'ub your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Fuller's Field, 4: and say to him, `Take heed, be quiet, do not fear, and do not let your heart be faint because of these two smoldering stumps of firebrands, at the fierce anger of Rezin and Syria and the son of Remali'ah. 5: Because Syria, with E'phraim and the son of Remali'ah, has devised evil against you, saying, 6: "Let us go up against Judah and terrify it, and let us conquer it for ourselves, and set up the son of Ta'be-el as king in the midst of it," 7: thus says the Lord Y-H-W-H: It shall not stand, and it shall not come to pass.
8: For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin. (Within sixty-five years E'phraim will be broken to pieces so that it will no longer be a people.) 9: And the head of E'phraim is Sama'ria, and the head of Sama'ria is the son of Remali'ah. If you will not believe, surely you shall not be established.'" 10: Again Y-H-W-H spoke to Ahaz,
11: "Ask a sign of Y-H-W-H your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven." 12: But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not put Y-H-W-H to the test." 13: And he said, "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? 14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

We see here in Isaiah 7, that king Achaz, the king of Judah, is afraid of two neighboring kings.
It is important to know that after the death of king Solomo the kingdom of Israel split up into two parts; into the kingdom of Judah, and the kingdom of Israel.
The kingdom om Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and a part of the Levites. The kingdom of Israel was made up of the other ten tribes.
Achaz was king over Judah, and in this prophecy the king of Israel is Pekah, the son of Remaliah.
And Pekah had made a covenant with the king of Syria, called Resin, to attack together the kingdom of Judah.
This news caused king Achaz considerable stress, because he had a dark suspicion that things could very well turn out not so very rosy for him.
Therefore God sent Isaiah to Achaz, in order to tell him that things would work out just fine for him. God tells Achaz that he will give him a sign. Here is the sign: "14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman is pregnant and is giving birth to a son, and she called his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

God says that before the child of the young woman who is pregnant will grow up, the land of the two kings, Resin of Syria, and Pekah of Israel, will be deserted, that is devoid of people. Those two nations will be led into exile.
So this is a sign for king Achaz, who lived about 700 years before JC.

And the Bible tells us that this prophecy came true: "27: In the fifty-second year of Azari'ah king of Judah Pekah the son of Remali'ah began to reign over Israel in Sama'ria, and reigned twenty years. 28: And he did what was evil in the sight of the LORD; he did not depart from the sins of Jerobo'am the son of Nebat, which he made Israel to sin. 29: In the days of Pekah king of Israel Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria came and captured I'jon, A'bel-beth-ma'acah, Jan-o'ah, Kedesh, Hazor, Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naph'tali; and he carried the people captive to Assyria. 30: Then Hoshe'a the son of Elah made a conspiracy against Pekah the son of Remali'ah, and struck him down, and slew him, and reigned in his stead, in the twentieth year of Jotham the son of Uzzi'ah."
II Kings 15.

We see here that the population of Israel indeed went into exile, and that the land of king Pekah was deserted.

And here is what happened to Resin, the king of Syria:
"6: At that time the king of Edom recovered Elath for Edom, and drove the men of Judah from Elath; and the E'domites came to Elath, where they dwell to this day. 7: So Ahaz sent messengers to Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria, saying, "I am your servant and your son. Come up, and rescue me from the hand of the king of Syria and from the hand of the king of Israel, who are attacking me." 8: Ahaz also took the silver and gold that was found in the house of the LORD and in the treasures of the king's house, and sent a present to the king of Assyria. 9: And the king of Assyria hearkened to him; the king of Assyria marched up against Damascus, and took it, carrying its people captive to Kir, and he killed Rezin."
II Kings 16.

So here we see that also the inhabitants of the land of King Resin went into exile, and also his land was deserted, in the days of Achaz.

So God gave a sign to Achaz.

In the days of Achaz.

About 700 years before JC.

So this prophecy has no bearing what so ever on the messiah, and NOWHERE in this prophecy is spoken about a virgin.

These are only misconceptions of the NT.

However, the NT brings this prophecy to Achaz as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 1 "21: she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." 22: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel".

So what the NT does here, is taking a text which does not speak about the messiah, ripping it out of context, mistranslating it, (is says "young woman", and not "virgin") and then presenting it to us as a messianic prophecy.

So one of the foundations of the Christian religion, the virgin birth, is based upon a mistranslated text which is ripped out of context and does NOT speak about the messiah.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

I'm not sure if anybody reads your posts, too long and anti Christian. I know I don't.

 

[jamie]

Just like I'm not saying that a young woman cannot be blind with only one leg. That is also possible.
But the idea would never come up in me to start translating the word for young woman as "the blind young woman with only one leg".
This despite the fact that it is possible.

Is it possible for a blind young woman with only one leg to be a virgin?

 

[Ben Masada]

The Pharasees knew of the Birth of JESUS and ridiculed him.

John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him,

We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;

a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet,

and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:

and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The virgin is a reference to Israel the Ten Tribes when it fell at the hand of the Assyrians. Hence Prophet Amos said, "The virgin Israel is fallen." (Amos 5:2) The child born of the virgin is Judah if you read Isaiah 7:14,15,22; 8:8) The Prophet identifies him by name.

 

[Wick Stick]

stuff you said

Not a bad job of explaining Isaiah. A couple things...

"Young woman" is just as bad a translation as "virgin." The correct translation is "veiled woman." What is denoted is that the woman in question is one of those women who has been dedicated to the service of the temple. Typically the veiled women who worked at the temple took a vow not to marry, and thus were virgins.

However, this one definitely was not a virgin.

You sort of skimmed over chapter 8, but in Isaiah 8:2-3, Isaiah goes to the temple, and impregnates the woman in question, personally:

And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah. And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son.

Notice that she is no longer the "veiled woman," but is now the "prophetess." If you understand some Hebrew, then you will understand the scandal.

At any rate, in the 1st century, the fashionable way to study Scripture was not to understand its original meaning, but rather to find its application to the lives and times of the people. It is not surprising that Isaiah 7-9 was "applied" to Jesus, especially if his mother Mary was pledged to the temple, and there was some scandal surrounding the birth.

Jarrod

 

[Wick Stick]

Is it possible for a blind young woman with only one leg to be a virgin?

Not if Jamie is on his game.

:troll:

 

[jamie]

Not if Jamie is on his game.

His? Not a chance.

 

[Elia]

Are you saying a young woman who has never known a man cannot be a virgin?

Bs"d

No.

But I'm saying that a woman who is pregnant, and giving birth, is not a virgin.

Common English Bible "Therefore, the Lord will give you a sign. The young woman is pregnant and is about to give birth to a son, and she will name him Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Contemporary English Version "But the Lord will still give you proof. A virgin is pregnant; she will have a son and will name him Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Easy-to-Read Version "The young woman is pregnant and will give birth to a son. She will name him Immanuel"
Partially correct in the tenses.

Good News Translation "Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman[a] who is pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Lexham English Bible "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’"
Partially correct in the tenses.

New Revised Standard Version " Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel"
Partially correct in the tenses.

Young's Literal Translation "Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, "
Fully correct in the tenses.





"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Was it uncommon for unmarried young women (or "women kept close" if you will) to be virgins in ancient Israel?

Bs"d

Not if they had been raped.

And why do you think that the woman in Isaiah 7:14 was not married?

In Biblical days, did women marry very young, or were they running around until after 30 before they got married?



"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[Elia]

Tell God you don't approve of his signs.

Bs"d

I very much approve of His signs.

Especially the sign that the land of the two kings for whom Achaz was in dread would be deserted before the boy Immanuel would grow up.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Is it possible for a blind young woman with only one leg to be a virgin?

Bs"d

Yes, that is possible.

But the idea would never come up in me to start translating the word for young woman as "the blind virgin with only one leg".
This despite the fact that it is possible.





"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Not a bad job of explaining Isaiah. A couple things...

"Young woman" is just as bad a translation as "virgin." The correct translation is "veiled woman." What is denoted is that the woman in question is one of those women who has been dedicated to the service of the temple. Typically the veiled women who worked at the temple took a vow not to marry, and thus were virgins.

Bs"d

The Jews were not Catholics. No vows of virginity, something like that is considered a very bad thing, and they sure were not sitting in the Temple.




"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

However, this one definitely was not a virgin.

You sort of skimmed over chapter 8, but in Isaiah 8:2-3, Isaiah goes to the temple, and impregnates the woman in question, personally:

And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah. And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son.

Notice that she is no longer the "veiled woman," but is now the "prophetess." If you understand some Hebrew, then you will understand the scandal.

At any rate, in the 1st century, the fashionable way to study Scripture was not to understand its original meaning, but rather to find its application to the lives and times of the people. It is not surprising that Isaiah 7-9 was "applied" to Jesus, especially if his mother Mary was pledged to the temple, and there was some scandal surrounding the birth.

Jarrod[/QUOTE]

 

[Wick Stick]

His? Not a chance.

Lol

Now why'd you have to go and spoil a perfectly good joke by being a giiiirl?

. :duh:
(Me)