Isaiah 7 study; "Behold the young woman is pregnant..."

[Derf]

18. Don Yitzhaq Abarbanel, writing in about 1500 C.E., made a statement that is particularly significant because his own view was that Isaiah was not speaking of the Messiah. Concerning Isaiah 52:13 through Isaiah 53:12, he stated:

The first question is to ascertain to whom it refers: for the learned among the Nazarenes expound it of the man who was crucified in Jerusalem at the end of the second Temple, and who, according to them, was the Son of God, and took flesh in the virgin’s womb, as is stated in their writings. But Yonathan ben Uzziel interprets it in the Thargum of the future Messiah; but this is also the opinion of our learned men in the majority of their Midrashim...[21] (emphasis added).

In spite of his personal view, Abarbanel was honest enough to admit that the majority of the rabbis of the Midrashim took the passage to speak of the Messiah. He thus agreed that this was the dominant Jewish view of the period of the Targumim and the Midrashim. (so much for the one-person's opinion theory in the Midrash)

 

[Derf]

19. In the 16th century, we have the following words of Rabbi Sa’adyah Ibn Danan of Grenada concerning the same Isaiah passage:

One of these, R. Joseph ben Kaspi, was led so far as to say that those who expounded it of the Messiah, who is shortly to be revealed, gave occasion to the heretics to interpret it of Jesus. May G-d, however, forgive him for not having spoken the truth! Our Rabbis, the doctors of the Thalmud, deliver their opinions by the power of prophecy, possessing a tradition concerning the principles of interpretation…alludes covertly to the King Messiah.[22]

Thus, Rabbi Ibn Danan asserted that the dominant view of Isaiah 53 of the Talmudic period was that it referred to the sufferings of the Messiah. In addition, Ibn Danan states that one reason Rabbi ben Kaspi was against interpreting the passage to speak of the Messiah is because the passage was being applied to Yeshua. It appears that attempts to interpret the passage as applying to Israel were driven by anti-Yeshua motives, rather than sound principles of interpretation.

 

[Derf]

20. Rabbi Moshe El-Sheikh was a disciple of Joseph Caro, author of the Shulchan Aruch. Writing in the latter half of the 16th century, Rabbi El-Sheikh stated:

Our Rabbis of blessed memory with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the King Messiah, and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view.

 

[Derf]

21. Rabbi Eliyyah de Vidas, writing from the latter half of the 16th century, stated:

…and this is that which is written, But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, the meaning of which is that since the Messiah bears our iniquities which produce the effect of his being bruised, it follows that whoso will not admit that the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities, must endure and suffer for them himself.[24]

Here, Rabbi de Vidas applies Isaiah 53:5 to the Messiah. By stating, “Since the Messiah bears our iniquities,” Rabbi de Vidas appears to assume that this was common knowledge (i.e. the dominant view). He goes on to state that anyone who refuses to admit (i.e. believe, accept, and possibly confess) that the Messiah would bear our iniquities, must suffer for his or her own sins. (Sobering, yes?)

 

[Derf]

22. In the 17th century, Rabbi Naphthali ben Asher Altschuler stated:

I will now proceed to explain these verses of our own Messiah, who, God willing, will come speedily in our days! I am surprised that Rashi and R. David Kimchi have not, with the Targums, applied it to the Messiah likewise.[25]

Thus, Rabbi Altschuler, likewise, asserted that the dominant Jewish view of the period of the Targumim was that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is none other than the Messiah. This 17th century rabbi was surprised that one would take any other view.

 

[Derf]

23. Herz Holmberg in his Korem, written in 1818, wrote:

The fact is, that it refers to the King Messiah, who will come in the latter days, when it will be the Lord’s good pleasure to redeem Israel from among the different nations of the earth.

 

[Derf]

24. Before his death on June 12, 1994, Lubavitcher Rabbi Menachem Schneerson was considered by many in his ultra-orthodox sect to be the Messiah (Moshioch in Hebrew). He was very ill during his last months. His followers placed an advertisement in the Manhattan Jewish Sentinel less than two months before his death. The advertisement stated:

MOSHIACH FACT #20

HOW CAN THE REBBE BE MOSHIOCH IF HE IS ILL?

Moshiach is described as one who is ill, “and he is wounded for our transgressions (Yeshayahu 53)”. When his time comes G-d says: I shall make him as a new creation. Thus the verse says, Today I have given birth to him, his moment of healing has come. (Yalkut Shimoni, Tehillim, Ch.2)

YECHI HAMELECH!

THE LUBAVITCHER REBBE HAS DECLARED THAT THE TIME OF THE REDEMPTION HAS ARRIVED

“Yeshayahu” is “Isaiah” in Hebrew. Here, as recently as April 1994, members of the Lubavitcher movement clearly and publicly applied Isaiah 53:5 to the Messiah.

 

[Derf]

I apologize for leaving most of the footnote numbers in there, since the links are broken. But you can go check out the notes for yourself by going to my source: http://www.hopeinmessiah.org/what-rabbis-have-said-about-isaiah-53/

 

[Elia]

18. Don Yitzhaq Abarbanel, writing in about 1500 C.E., made a statement that is particularly significant because his own view was that Isaiah was not speaking of the Messiah. Concerning Isaiah 52:13 through Isaiah 53:12, he stated:

The first question is to ascertain to whom it refers: for the learned among the Nazarenes expound it of the man who was crucified in Jerusalem at the end of the second Temple, and who, according to them, was the Son of God, and took flesh in the virgin’s womb, as is stated in their writings. But Yonathan ben Uzziel interprets it in the Thargum of the future Messiah; but this is also the opinion of our learned men in the majority of their Midrashim...[21] (emphasis added).

In spite of his personal view, Abarbanel was honest enough to admit that the majority of the rabbis of the Midrashim took the passage to speak of the Messiah. He thus agreed that this was the dominant Jewish view of the period of the Targumim and the Midrashim. (so much for the one-person's opinion theory in the Midrash)

Bs"d

Just give me one proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach, that it speaks about the messiah.

The proofs that it speaks about Israel are overwhelming.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Derf]

Prrof by whose standard? If yours, you've already shown that you don't believe it, so the best anyone could do is to tell you that others do--others that are on the same side of the fence in terms of Jesus of Nazareth. If those others felt, even after Jesus came, that Is 53 speaks of the messiah(even if it didn't speak of Jesus in particular), and you don't, it's likely no proof will ever be good enough for you. God doesn't force anyone to believe correctly about the scriptures.

But if it talks about Israel, then who is suffering for whom?

 

[Elia]

Prrof by whose standard? If yours, you've already shown that you don't believe it, so the best anyone could do is to tell you that others do--others that are on the same side of the fence in terms of Jesus of Nazareth. If those others felt, even after Jesus came, that Is 53 speaks of the messiah(even if it didn't speak of Jesus in particular), and you don't, it's likely no proof will ever be good enough for you. God doesn't force anyone to believe correctly about the scriptures.

Bs"d

Don't talk so much without saying anything.

Just give some proof from Isaiah, or from the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

The proof that it speaks about Israel is abundant and irrefutable.

But if it talks about Israel, then who is suffering for whom?

For Israel.

For the finer details look HERE.


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[Derf]

Bs"d

Don't talk so much without saying anything.

Just give some proof from Isaiah, or from the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

The proof that it speaks about Israel is abundant and irrefutable.

Irrefutable? So if I refute that all of it is talking about Jacob (which is your assertion), then you will agree to consider it (that part) as possibly about the messiah?

So, quoted from your link:"I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

And: "But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses"

So if "thee" is given for a covenant of the people, how is "thee" the people?

And if "thee" is Jacob, given for a covenant and a light "to open the blind eyes and bring...them that sit in darkness out of the prison houses, how is the one that is in the prison house supposed to be the one that brings out those that sit in the prison houses?

 

[Elia]

So, quoted from your link:"I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

And: "But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses"

So if "thee" is given for a covenant of the people, how is "thee" the people?

Bs"d

It is no so much a "covenant of the people", but a "covenant-people". The Jews are the people of the covenant. That is what Isaiah is saying. You can technically read "covenant of the people", but you can also read" covenant-people".

And if "thee" is Jacob, given for a covenant and a light "to open the blind eyes and bring...them that sit in darkness out of the prison houses, how is the one that is in the prison house supposed to be the one that brings out those that sit in the prison houses?

It's a self help thing. If the Jews repent, and return to God and His laws, then the disasters that God brought over them will be lifted and everything will be fine and dandy.

And HERE you can see why it cannot be your messiah.


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[Derf]

Bs"d

It is no so much a "covenant of the people", but a "covenant-people". The Jews are the people of the covenant. That is what Isaiah is saying. You can technically read "covenant of the people", but you can also read" covenant-people".

It's a self help thing. If the Jews repent, and return to God and His laws, then the disasters that God brought over them will be lifted and everything will be fine and dandy.

And HERE you can see why it cannot be your messiah.

Merry Christmas, Elia!
There's certainly something to the idea of self-help, but there's also an element of helplessness. "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chr 7:14) Notice who does the helping and who does the "surrendering"? The people humble themselves, pray, seek His face, and repent. Then He hears from heaven. Then He forgives their sin. Then He heals their land.

What are they repenting from? Going after other gods!

What if (bear with me for just a moment) the New Testament is telling the truth and Jesus really is the Son of God, and He really does deserve to be worshiped as the True and living God--not separate, not a different God, but YHWH Himself, distinct but not separate?

Then you, who say that Jesus is telling others to go after other gods (which He never, ever did) would be worshiping a false God--one that did not include the second person of the Trinity as part of his eternal being. You would be rejecting the third person as well--the one that convicts of sin and witnesses of the other two.

And this is why I fear for your soul. For Jesus, who called himself "I AM", (Jn 8:58-9), also said that the one thing that condemns a man beyond forgiveness is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit of God (Mark 3:29). He said this after the pharisees had said that he had a demon that gave him the power to cast out demons.

Isaiah 63:10 also claimed the people of YHWH were vexing the Holy Spirit. Isaiah seems to speak in the same way as Jesus of Nazareth did.

 

[Elia]

Merry Christmas, Elia!

Bs"d

I don't do pagan festivals. I observe Gods holy days.

There's certainly something to the idea of self-help, but there's also an element of helplessness. "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chr 7:14) Notice who does the helping and who does the "surrendering"? The people humble themselves, pray, seek His face, and repent. Then He hears from heaven. Then He forgives their sin. Then He heals their land.

Take good notice, we don't need a messiah, we need repentance to be forgiven.

What are they repenting from? Going after other gods!

What if (bear with me for just a moment) the New Testament is telling the truth and Jesus really is the Son of God, and He really does deserve to be worshiped as the True and living God--not separate, not a different God, but YHWH Himself, distinct but not separate?

Then you, who say that Jesus is telling others to go after other gods (which He never, ever did)

Yes, he surely did. He set up himself as the new man-god.

He demanded he should be honoured just like God. (John 5:23)

would be worshiping a false God--one that did not include the second person of the Trinity as part of his eternal being. You would be rejecting the third person as well--the one that convicts of sin and witnesses of the other two.

And this is why I fear for your soul.

You don't have to fear for my soul, because I worship the one and only God Y-H-W-H who is ONE.

NOWHERE is it written that God is three, three in one, a trinity, triune, or anything like that.
So why take that illogical, impossible, extra-Biblical, pagan concept seriously?

I fear for the soul of the pagans following the idolatrous concept.

For Jesus, who called himself "I AM", (Jn 8:58-9), also said that the one thing that condemns a man beyond forgiveness is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit of God (Mark 3:29). He said this after the pharisees had said that he had a demon that gave him the power to cast out demons.

The mental institutions are full of people who claim they are God.

Isaiah 63:10 also claimed the people of YHWH were vexing the Holy Spirit. Isaiah seems to speak in the same way as Jesus of Nazareth did.

Isaiah never claimed to be God.

He was a true servant of Y-H-W-H.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Derf]

Bs"d

The mental institutions are full of people who claim they are God.

How many of them have risen from the dead and ascended bodily up to heaven?

 

[Elia]

How many of them have risen from the dead and ascended bodily up to heaven?

Bs"d

An awful lot of 'm:

http://christianity.stackexchange.c...-explain-the-similarities-between-other-socie


Born of a virgin
Born on December 25th
Crucified
Dead for 3 days
Resurrected

God: Krishna

Born of a virgin
Star in the east
Performed miracles
Resurrected

God: Dionsyus

Born of a virgin
Born on December 25th
Performed miracles, including turning water into wine
Referred to as the "King of Kings"
Referred to as "Gods only begotten son"
Resurrected

God: Mithra

Born of a virgin
Born on December 25th
12 Disciples
Performed miracles
Dead for 3 days
Resurrected
Sunday is day of worship for Mithra

And the most striking and seemingly the base for all other mythologies:

God: Horus

Born on December 25th
Born of a virgin
Star in the east
Adored by 3 kings
Teach at 12
Baptized at 30
12 Disciples
Performed Miracles
Known as "Lamb of God", "The Light"
Crucified
Dead for 3 days
Resurrected

Interesting, here is a photo of what is claimed to be Horus's crucifixion:

Compare to this:

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction. The Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say: “Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.”"
Jer 16:19

 

[Derf]

Bs"d

An awful lot of 'm:

http://christianity.stackexchange.c...-explain-the-similarities-between-other-socie


Born of a virgin
Born on December 25th
Crucified
Dead for 3 days
Resurrected

God: Krishna

Born of a virgin
Star in the east
Performed miracles
Resurrected

God: Dionsyus

Born of a virgin
Born on December 25th
Performed miracles, including turning water into wine
Referred to as the "King of Kings"
Referred to as "Gods only begotten son"
Resurrected

God: Mithra

Born of a virgin
Born on December 25th
12 Disciples
Performed miracles
Dead for 3 days
Resurrected
Sunday is day of worship for Mithra

And the most striking and seemingly the base for all other mythologies:

God: Horus

Born on December 25th
Born of a virgin
Star in the east
Adored by 3 kings
Teach at 12
Baptized at 30
12 Disciples
Performed Miracles
Known as "Lamb of God", "The Light"
Crucified
Dead for 3 days
Resurrected

Interesting. Can you give your source(s) for this information? For instance, can you state how we know Jesus was born on Dec 25th? Or Horus? Or any of the others, for that matter?

Oh, and a Happy and Prosperous New Year to you, Elia!

 

[Ben Masada]

1 - The Pharasees knew of the Birth of JESUS and ridiculed him.
2 - John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him,
3 - We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
4 - Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
5 - And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

1 - To my honest understanding of that text of John 8, Jesus was talking to some Jewish peers, who had grown up with him and had believed in him. (John 8:31) Nothing to do with being Pharisees.

2 - This according to Christian vernacular is a reference to the Devil. Not Jewish because Jews do not believe the Devil. Therefore, the assertion that Jesus was referring to the Devil jeopardizes the whole text. (John 8:44)

3 - This is a reference to the catastrophic rapes of young Jewish women in Israel by the Roman soldiers endorsed by Josephus.

4 - This is a Catholic metaphorical image of Mary and the Apostles.

5 - Here, the reference is to Mary in Isaiah 7:14 as Christianity is concerned. The truth though is that the Prophet was referring to Israel as the virgin and Judah as the child born of the virgin when the virgin Israel fell at the hand of Assyria. (Amos 5:2) Now, if you read the verses in Isaiah 7:14, 15, and 22, you will get to Isaiah 8:8 where the Prophet identifies Judah aka Immanuel as being the child born of the virgin Israel when the Lord rejected Israel and confirmed Judah. (Psalm 78:67-70)

 

[Ben Masada]

Was it uncommon for unmarried young women (or "women kept close" if you will) to be virgins in ancient Israel?

No, it was not uncommon. There are two kinds of virgin in Hebrew. One is "Almah" which is any young Jewish woman still at the age of giving birth. The other is "Betulah" the literally physical virgin whether she is young or not.