Isaiah 53 is about ISRAEL

[Elia]

Some Rabbis of Talmudic Judaism say that the "He" in Isaiah 53 is Old Covenant Israel.

Bs"d

Not only the Rabbis say so, Isaiah himself says so.

For the finer details look here: https://tinyurl.com/53-Isaiah



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Ben Masada]

Isaiah 53 is about Israel

Isaiah 53 is about Israel

Indeed! I have no doubt about it, especially after reading the following:

The Consensus of the Messiah in Isaiah 53

There is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I can agree with that too. Well, the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that the Messiah could be an individual. You can read it in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Now, if we should apply Logic to that consensus, the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell us: Are we supposed to hope for, or expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!

The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. I mean, as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night. It means, the laws of nature will function as they have been assigned to from the beginning. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. And that's the second Prophet to identify the Messiah by name with Israel.

The main role of the Messiah is to serve as the Divine means by which God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations. You can find this truth in Ezekiel 20:41. In addition, that's the third Prophet to identify Israel by name with that Divine Messianic role.

Last but not least, if we read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew, it says that the Lord went out for the salvation His People HaMoshiach. In the KJV we read "for the salvation of His People, even His anointed one." But since this fourth Prophet mentions "His People," We all can understand that the text is talking about Israel the Jewish People. The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.
Ben

 

[CherubRam]

Indeed! I have no doubt about it, especially after reading the following:

The Consensus of the Messiah in Isaiah 53

There is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I can agree with that too. Well, the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that the Messiah could be an individual. You can read it in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Now, if we should apply Logic to that consensus, the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell us: Are we supposed to hope for, or expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!

The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. I mean, as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night. It means, the laws of nature will function as they have been assigned to from the beginning. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. And that's the second Prophet to identify the Messiah by name with Israel.

The main role of the Messiah is to serve as the Divine means by which God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations. You can find this truth in Ezekiel 20:41. In addition, that's the third Prophet to identify Israel by name with that Divine Messianic role.

Last but not least, if we read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew, it says that the Lord went out for the salvation His People HaMoshiach. In the KJV we read "for the salvation of His People, even His anointed one." But since this fourth Prophet mentions "His People," We all can understand that the text is talking about Israel the Jewish People. The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.
Ben

"Servant of God" is a common title used in the bible. All who serve God are servants of God.

 

[jamie]

The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.

And he made his grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. (Isaiah 53:9 KJV)​

He had done no violence? That's not Israel.

 

[Elia]

"Servant of God" is a common title used in the bible. All who serve God are servants of God.

Bs"d

An interesting point is that NOWHERE in the whole Tanach is the messiah ever referred to as "servant of God".



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

And he made his grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. (Isaiah 53:9 KJV)​

He had done no violence? That's not Israel.

Bs"d

Is it your messiah?

“So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:15



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Bs"d

Isaiah 53 speaks about "the servant of God".

So the Christians think that is the messiah.

Then the logical question would be; "What proof from Isaiah, or the rest of the Tanach, can you bring that that servant of God is the messiah?"

I'm very curious for the answer to this obvious question.

Of course you can ask the same question for Israel as the servant of God, and I would give the following answer:


Let us now take a look about who the prophet Isaiah is really talking here. Isaiah 52:13; “Behold My servant shall deal prudently ….” The key question here is: Who is it that the prophet Isaiah calls the servant of God? We shall let the prophet Isaiah speak for himself, and please keep in mind that the name of Jacob was changed into Israel after the fight with the angel in the end of Genesis 32; Jacob is synonymous with Israel:


Isaiah 41:8: “But thou , Israel art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou who I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thou from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee: Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.”

Isaiah 44:1-2; “Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel who I have chosen. Thus said the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; fear not O Jacob my servant, and thou Jesurun whom I have chosen.”


Isaiah 44:21; “Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art my servant. I have formed thee, thou art my servant; OIsrael thou shalt not be forgotten of me


Isaiah 45:4; “For Jacob, my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name.”


Isaiah 48:20; “The lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.”


Isaiah 49:3; “And said unto me: Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

​

​

The servant that Isaiah is talking about is the people of Israel.​

​

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[daqq]

Isaiah 45:4; “For Jacob, my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name.”

So soon you forget what has already been said to you from that passage:

Isaiah 45:3 Transliterated Unaccented
3. Wnatatiy lka 'owtsrowt choshek uwmaTmuney mictariym, lma`an teda` kiy- 'niy YHWH ha-Qowre' bshimka 'Elohey Yisra'el.

Isaiah 45:1-5
1. Thus says YHWH to His Mashiyach, to Koresh, [LXX - "Kuros" which is the root for Kurios] whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut:
2. I will go before you, and make the crooked places straight; I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3. And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, [hidden from the foundation of the world - Matthew 13:35] that you may know that I am YHWH, Who calls you by your name: 'Elohey Yisra'el.
4. For the sake of Yaakob My servant, and Yisrael My chosen-elect, I have even called you by your name: I have surnamed you, ["Elohey Yisrael"] though you have not known Me!
5. I am YHWH, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside Me: I gird you, though you have not known Me:

 

[CherubRam]

Bs"d

An interesting point is that NOWHERE in the whole Tanach is the messiah ever referred to as "servant of God".



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Even so, it is of no importance.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his Elohiym, and we will walk in the name of Yahwah our Elohiym for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

that you may know that I am YHWH, Who calls you by your name: 'Elohey Yisra'el.
4. For the sake of Yaakob My servant, and Yisrael My chosen-elect, I have even called you by your name: I have surnamed you,

Bs"d

That expression "I have surnamed you" just isn't there.

What it says is: "Know (command form) that I am Y-H-W-H who calls you by your name, Elohei Yisrael."

It doesn't say that Cyrus is being called "God of Israel", it says Y-H-W-H, the God of Israel, calls him by his name.

That's all.

 

[Elia]

Even so, it is of no importance.

Bs"d

It is of very big importance. It shows that it is very silly when the messiah is never called "servant of God", to think that the servant of God in Isaiah 53 is suddenly the messiah.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his Elohiym, and we will walk in the name of Yahwah our Elohiym for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[CherubRam]

Bs"d

It is of very big importance. It shows that it is very silly when the messiah is never called "servant of God", to think that the servant of God in Isaiah 53 is suddenly the messiah.





"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

"God / god" is an interpretation, it is not a translation. All of the people will walk by the name of our Elohiym, Yahwah. Elohiym is Yahwah. "God of The Living" is Yahwah.

 

[daqq]

Bs"d

That expression "I have surnamed you" just isn't there.

What it says is: "Know (command form) that I am Y-H-W-H who calls you by your name, Elohei Yisrael."

It doesn't say that Cyrus is being called "God of Israel", it says Y-H-W-H, the God of Israel, calls him by his name.

That's all.

The text does not say "Cyrus" anywhere and in fact in the same passage the same personage is called "My Shepherd", (Isaiah 44:28). The idea that the passage speaks of Cyrus is a misapplication of the prophecy and that, in itself, is a misapplication tantamount to blasphemy because anyone who has read the translated inscription from the Cyrus Cylinder knows that Cyrus II worshiped Marduk. In addition Paul quotes from the same passage and applies it to Yeshua as Mashiyach and the one sent from the Father:

Romans 14:11
11. For it is written, As I live, says YHWH, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to Elohim.

Philippians 2:10-11
10. That in the name of Yeshua every knee should bow, of heavenlies, and of earthlies, and of what are under the earth:
11. And that every tongue should confess that Yeshua Messiah is Master to the glory of Elohim the Father.

Isaiah 45:13-25
13. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, says YHWH Tsabaoth.
14. Thus says YHWH, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto you, and they shall be thine: they shall come after you, in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto you, they shall make supplication unto you, saying: Surely El is in you, and there is none else, there is no Elohim.
15. Verily you are an El that hides yourself, Elohey Yisrael, Moshiya.
16. They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
17. But Yisrael shall be saved in YHWH with an everlasting salvation: you shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
18. For thus says YHWH, Creator of the heavens: he is ha-Elohim that formed the earth, and made it; he has established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am YHWH, and there is none else.
19. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Yakob, "Seek Me in vain", I YHWH speak righteousness: I declare things that are right.
20. Assemble yourselves, and come; draw near together, you that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21. Declare you, and bring near, Yea, let them take counsel together: who has declared this from ancient time? who has told it from that time? have not I YHWH? And there is no Elohim else beside Me, El Tsaddik, and Moshiya, there is none beside Me.
22. Look unto Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am El, and there is none else.
23. I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not turn back, that unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24. One shall say, "Only in YHWH have I righteousness and strength!" To him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25. In YHWH shall all the seed of Yisrael be justified and shall glory.

 

[daqq]

Isaiah 45:14-15
14. Thus says YHWH, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto you, and they shall be thine: they shall come after you, in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto you, they shall make supplication unto you, saying: Surely El is in you, and there is none else, there is no Elohim.
15. Verily you are an El that hides yourself, Elohey Yisrael, Moshiya.

John 17:6-12 KJV
6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Come baaaack, O lost sheep of the house of Yisrael . . . :crackup:

:sheep:

 

[Elia]

The text does not say "Cyrus" anywhere

Bs"d

I suggest you look again, it is written their very clearly. Well, maybe "Koresh", but that's the same thing.

and in fact in the same passage the same personage is called "My Shepherd", (Isaiah 44:28). The idea that the passage speaks of Cyrus is a misapplication of the prophecy

Also there his name is clearly mentioned:
"Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is My shepherd,
And he shall perform all My pleasure,
Saying to Jerusalem, “You shall be built,”
And to the temple, “Your foundation shall be laid.”’
Is 44:28

and that, in itself, is a misapplication tantamount to blasphemy

I think it is a misapplication tantamount to blasphemy and horrible lies, when it says in the text "Cyrus", and you try to turn it into your messiah.

because anyone who has read the translated inscription from the Cyrus Cylinder knows that Cyrus II worshiped Marduk.

I believe in the Tanach, not in the Cyrus Cylinder.

In addition Paul quotes from the same passage and applies it to Yeshua as Mashiyach and the one sent from the Father:

But that is what the whole NT does, ripping texts which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever out of context, and then claiming it are messianic prophecies.

More horrible examples of that you can find here: https://sites.google.com/view/324x0/home



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

 

[jamie]

Is it your messiah?

“So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:15

It was the duty of every adult Jewish male to keep the Temple holy, but only Jesus cared enough to step up up the plate and clean house.

Good for him.

 

[beloved57]

Isaiah 53 is about ISRAEL

Sure because Christ is Israel Isa 49:3

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

Christ did just that Jn 17:4

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Sure because Christ is Israel Isa 49:3

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

Christ did just that Jn 17:4

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Amen...I'd also like to expound upon this a little bit further.

~Exo_4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

~Hos_11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

~Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

~Mat_2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

~Joh_4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

 

[northwye]

~Exo_4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

~Hos_11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

~Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

~Mat_2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Thanks for posting this. I was thinking of looking for it on one of my E Mail accounts to post here.

Saying Jesus Christ is Israel is far different than a Rabbi saying that the "he" in Isaiah 53 is Old Covenant Israel and not Jesus Christ.

And - since Matthew 23: 37-38 says "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate" - Christ was not in Old Covenant Israel. He was in New Covenant Israel and New Covenant Israel was created in and by Jesus Christ.