ECT Isaiah 1:18 . . How would you teach it?

[theophilus]

No. I am not a retired pastor.

That's what you told me in a private message.

And it was the same private message you used to accuse me of spouting a bunch of Baptist, OSAS and commentary stuff in your thread.

Simplify it, you ask? That was a short version of why Adam fell.

Suppose I, as a Christian who wanted to serve the Lord with all my heart [and I do], said I had a weakness for enjoying entertainment. What would you think about that?

I would tell you to enjoy entertainment that brought glory to God.

 

[Cross Reference]

That's what you told me in a private message.

And it was the same private message you used to accuse me of spouting a bunch of Baptist, OSAS and commentary stuff in your thread.

Sorry but, you have your private messages mixed up.

I would tell you to enjoy entertainment that brought glory to God.

Thank you.

 

[God's Truth]

Hi and the Lord is talking to Israel and NOT the Body mof Christ , CONTEXT is self evident !!

dAN P

God included ALL people. All people will have their sins like scarlet washed away by the blood of Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

I think we can agree this verse is not a messianic prophecy.

That said: Would not God's request for "reasoning" make more sense if God was speaking of Israel's sin as being as leprosy and was already in the scarlet red stage, soon to be white?

Here's the whole context:

"16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." Isaiah 1:16-20 (KJV)

The whole Old Testament is a prophecy of the coming Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

Israel will be saved as a group. "ye" is plural indicating "you all" in a direct way. They will be dead to sin in the future, like the Body of Christ is today.

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

It is taught as it is presented. A future event for Israel.

When Jesus comes again, it will be too late to repent of sins, for he comes as a thief in the night, and he will not be coming to bear sin.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

[God's Truth]

SO WHAT??!! It is NOT a covenant issue!

Is sin or leprosy exclusive to Israel?? Is God's reasonableness exclusive to Israel???

The analogy is how sin relates to leprosy. What's your problem???! Or do you just need to be right?!

It is a covenant issue. The Old Covenant is no more. We have a New Covenant. Jews who did not have faith when Jesus came were cut off. God bound all to disobedience, and all must come to God the same Way, through faith with obedience to Jesus Christ.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Interplanner]

God included ALL people. All people will have their sins like scarlet washed away by the blood of Jesus.

They can, but not all will.

 

[Interplanner]

My note on the last two pages is that it is just as important to distinguish between the legal and the transforming parts of salvation about Israel as it is about individuals. The debt of sin and the power of sin do not overlap exactly. Many passages are about obtaining justification from our sins. If you fuse the two thing in your thinking you will miss what Dan 9 is prophesying and you will think that Rom 11 is about a day when all Israel obeys the law perfectly. That is seldom what 'saved' means in Romans and is not what Isaiah meant in the expression 'to take away sin.' We know this because it was used of John the Baptiszers name for Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

They can, but not all will.

All must come to Jesus to access that grace.

 

[God's Truth]

My note on the last two pages is that it is just as important to distinguish between the legal and the transforming parts of salvation about Israel as it is about individuals. The debt of sin and the power of sin do not overlap exactly. Many passages are about obtaining justification from our sins. If you fuse the two thing in your thinking you will miss what Dan 9 is prophesying and you will think that Rom 11 is about a day when all Israel obeys the law perfectly. That is seldom what 'saved' means in Romans and is not what Isaiah meant in the expression 'to take away sin.' We know this because it was used of John the Baptiszers name for Christ.

John the baptizer had to prepare the way for Jesus. The Jews had to repent of their sins before Jesus would come to them. Everyone must prepare their heart before Jesus will make his home there. We prepare our hearts by repenting of sins.

 

[Interplanner]

John the baptizer had to prepare the way for Jesus. The Jews had to repent of their sins before Jesus would come to them. Everyone must prepare their heart before Jesus will make his home there. We prepare our hearts by repenting of sins.

Your comment is sincere, but not quite on target of what I was saying. JB said behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. That does not mean sin stops or that evil stops. It means that there is the propitiating sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

Rejecting that is a new kind of sin, not realized before--and stated most clearly in Rom 10:1-4. The problem of asserting one's righteousness when it can't do what is needed.

 

[God's Truth]

Your comment is sincere,

I am glad that you see that.

but not quite on target of what I was saying.

I am also glad that you want to explain more so that we can discuss deeper.

JB said behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. That does not mean sin stops or that evil stops. It means that there is the propitiating sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

The Jews used animals to clean themselves of their sins. Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God.

Rejecting that is a new kind of sin, not realized before--and stated most clearly in Rom 10:1-4. The problem of asserting one's righteousness when it can't do what is needed.

Many Jews did not believe Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world once and for all; instead, many of the Jews wanted to keep doing the cleaning part of the law themselves, as God had commanded in the past. Many Jews still wanted to keep cleaning themselves by doing the ceremonial works, such as getting circumcised, adhering to a dietary law, observing special days, and doing various external washings, and sacrificing animals.

The people used to have to clean themselves, but now faith that Jesus' blood cleans us after repenting is what cleans us.

 

[Danoh]

Your comment is sincere, but not quite on target of what I was saying. JB said behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. That does not mean sin stops or that evil stops. It means that there is the propitiating sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

Rejecting that is a new kind of sin, not realized before--and stated most clearly in Rom 10:1-4. The problem of asserting one's righteousness when it can't do what is needed.

Nope.

John 1 defines what "world" John the Baptist was referring to...

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

 

[Interplanner]

Nope.

John 1 defines what "world" John the Baptist was referring to...

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

You are also off target Danoh. The question was what 'take away' means. Not what 'world' was involved.

 

[Cross Reference]

Again, the whole point of the thread is to define what God was alluding to in verse 18.

I believe it was to explain to the reader, ANY READER, that sin is as Leprosy. It starts off pinkish, progresses to scarlet red before becoming, "white as snow".

Do you now all understand?? DUH!

 

[Cross Reference]

Nope.

John 1 defines what "world" John the Baptist was referring to...

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

By that, are we to believe you think John the Baptist wrote the gospel of John?

 

[Interplanner]

Again, the whole point of the thread is to define what God was alluding to in verse 18.

I believe it was to explain to the reader, ANY READER, that sin is as Leprosy. It starts off pinkish, progresses to scarlet red before becoming, "white as snow".

Do you now all understand?? DUH!

There are many analogies to sin being taken away as a debt, but that doesn't change the concept. The new era of the Messiah's Gospel that was coming was not one in which Israel and the nations would cease sinning, but in which the Gospel solved the sin-as-debt problem. Going from 'leprosy' to 'snow' is a great picture of that, but is not meant to be confused.

 

[Cross Reference]

There are many analogies to sin being taken away as a debt, but that doesn't change the concept.

Isa 1:18 isn't one of them. Any novice without agenda, can see that.

The new era of the Messiah's Gospel that was coming was not one in which Israel and the nations would cease sinning, but in which the Gospel solved the sin-as-debt problem. Going from 'leprosy' to 'snow' is a great picture of that, but is not meant to be confused.

Indeed, it is not to be meant to be confused but conveyed as a warning. Now, "Come, lets us reason together".

 

[Interplanner]

Isa 1:18 isn't one of them. Any novice without agenda, can see that.

Indeed, it is not to be meant to be confused but conveyed as a warning. Now, "Come, lets us reason together".

Have you ever thought about setting aside your put-downs so that people would be interested in talking to you?

re Isaiah, the entire book turns into the proclamation of the grace of God in Christ that was coming; of the paradigm shift of the new covenant that was coming. I'd say it was underway. The dismal history of Israel is that the old was weak and powerless; I'm not even convinced (from Gal 3-4) that it was ever supposed to happen.

 

[Cross Reference]

Have you ever thought about setting aside your put-downs so that people would be interested in talking to you?

Of course. But only when the obvious is addressed as opposed to some distracting, ilthoughtout, religious opinion.

re Isaiah, the entire book turns into the proclamation of the grace of God in Christ that was coming; of the paradigm shift of the new covenant that was coming. I'd say it was underway. The dismal history of Israel is that the old was weak and powerless; I'm not even convinced (from Gal 3-4) that it was ever supposed to happen.

"obviously", you need to read Isaiah if indeed you are interested in the God of the whole Bible: a God Who purposes much written in the scriptures to be taken as "types and antitypes" that we, and I use the word loosely, might benefit concerning what He is after from those who "love" Him..