ECT Is this pastor correct or out of line?

musterion

Well-known member
One does not legislate keeping the peace by restricting what a member reads.

AMR

Unless, as I think you implied, such can be construed as disruptive to the assembly. If so, what then? Does the pastor directly confront the member and try to find out what's behind the dissent to see if it can be stopped, one way or the other?

Or is he justified in doing an and run around the member, seeking to cut off the source of information, as if the member is a child or a mindless sheep in need of the rod? You left the door open with "as long as" so I'm curious to know how you think this should or could play out according to your understanding of a pastor's biblical authority.
 

Totton Linnet

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As a pastor I would have handled the matter differently.

Cloud's work on Erasmus is reasonably good, albeit from a fundamentalist perspective versus using a confessional one. That said, his shoddiness when it comes to his poor understanding of Calvinism warrants saying as much. ;) See, here I have given potential "ammunition" to the anti-Calvinist, fearing nothing that may come from it, in fact, relishing the rebuttals readily at hand. :AMR:

More seriously, I do not think a church with decidedly Reformed or Calvinistic views (or opposing views for a non-Reformed or Calvinistic church for that matter) should fear anything that might be said or read by its members as long as these members remember their membership avowal to "keep the peace" of the church to which they have covenanted their membership. Properly understanding the views of others, even when they are uninformed or partaking in parabolic polemics, is useful for the strengthening of what one holds dear. After all, if matters of doctrine held are forbidden to be explored one must wonder what such a group fears. As I have always remembered when once a young pastor, when there is mist in the pulpit there is fog in the pews.

One does not legislate "keeping the peace" by restricting what a member reads. It smacks of some sort of cultic mindset.

AMR

It is just control freakery, more likely he's playing the hen fussing over his chix...you know a hen will go after a fox, don't upset a hen...
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Ahh, you quoted me while I was in the throes of editing my initial response to be more thorough.

AMR
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Unless, as I think you implied, such can be construed as disruptive to the assembly. If so, what then? Does the pastor directly confront the member and try to find out what's behind the dissent to see if it can be stopped, one way or the other?

Or is he justified in doing an and run around the member, seeking to cut off the source of information, as if the member is a child or a mindless sheep in need of the rod? You left the door open with "as long as" so I'm curious to know how you think this should or could play out according to your understanding of a pastor's biblical authority.

No implication can be drawn from what a person reads. The implication is in the actions of the one so reading. If the member seeks to disrupt the peace they are subjecting themselves to potential discipline. Furthermore, most seem to think that their public behavior is outside the bounds of church discipline. In a well-ordered church, this is far from true.

For example, a member of a conservative Reformed church that appears on a public internet discussion site discussing his or her church's activities, holding their pastor up to ridicule, etc., in a negative light will likely find themselves questioned by the local session (elders) when it comes to be known. Not all churches treat discipline as a mark of a true church, but the conservative, confessional, churches do indeed take the teachings of Scripture about these things very seriously.

Re-read my now completed prior post. Some have quoted it while a work in progress. No "end-run" by the pastor should be made to restrict what a member reads. This is cultic behavior and beyond the bounds. While the pastor has warrant to remind the flock of their vows of keeping the peace and the consequences therein, taking steps to restrict what is to be read and what is not, is beyond the bounds. The "court" of public opinion is no court at all, rather the mob rules.

It is quite simple. If a member has concerns or issues with their ordained servants, speak to them. If they will not hear you take a witness with you and try again. Failing that, take it to the church courts, then abide by the decision or find a new place to worship if you cannot abide.

AMR
 

musterion

Well-known member
No "end-run" by the pastor should be made to restrict what a member reads. This is cultic behavior and beyond the bounds.

Agreed.

While the pastor has warrant to remind the flock of their vows of keeping the peace and the consequences therein, taking steps to restrict what is to be read and what is not, is beyond the bounds.

Here I disagree, I think. The focus should not be on whatever statements, creeds or covenants parties have signed off on for membership of a local church. The bottom line should always be, What saith the Scripture?

If a fair hearing within the church finds the concerns or criticisms to be baseless, then the members in question have a choice: either drop their criticisms or leave. Conversely, if the church tests some aspect of its teaching or practice that's found unsupported by or contradictory to the Bible, then other decisions need to be made by everyone. But the Word is to be the focus, not human bylaws and such.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Here I disagree. The focus should not be on whatever statements, creeds or covenants parties have signed for membership of a local church. The bottom line should always be, What saith the Scripture?
The assumption is always that the church's confessional basis or statement of faith is an accurate summary of Scripture. The member's vows taken assume this to be so. The ordained servant's vows go further and affirm all that the confession has stated. Few scruples are allowed to be taken by the ordained servant of the church.

These confessions plainly state that they are not infallible and that Holy Writ is the only infallible standard. Hence, there is a practice from Scripture of raising matters of disagreement between what someone thinks the confession states and what Scripture states. No one has warrant to appeal to their personal interpretations, for nowhere in Scripture do we find this warranted. The Scriptures know nothing of Lone Ranger Christians, thumping "Just Me and My Bible". Scripture is interpreted in community of the saints, following the pattern of sound teaching in Scripture. Hence, the concerned member speaks with the local ordained leaders, and can appeal to the presbytery (geographic collection of churches) and even to the Assembly governing all the churches of a like-minded group.

As you state, if they disagree with the results, they need to go elsewhere.

AMR
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Agreed. Can't add a poll for now, though. I expect the charismatics and possibly the reformed will say "yes," but we'll see. Evangellyfish and professing fundies could go either way. Sound in the faith dispies will say NO.

I say NO.

Of course Dispy's will say no.

They love divisions, as they divide Christ up to follow Paul.



1 Corinthians 1:13 KJV


13 Is Christ divided ? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
 

Lazy afternoon

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Agreed. Can't add a poll for now, though. I expect the charismatics and possibly the reformed will say "yes," but we'll see. Evangellyfish and professing fundies could go either way. Sound in the faith dispies will say NO.

I say NO.

Yet you try to remove posters from this board by your bully tactics with Grosnick leading the pack.

LA
 

intojoy

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David Cloud of O Timothy writes,

Does a pastor have the biblical authority to do what this pastor attempted to do? (Cloud refused)

No.
He has the right to stop his congregants from receiving the emails but the outside of his church people he does not have authority over. Unless of course the outsiders recognize him as an elder ordained by God
 

Angel4Truth

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No.
He has the right to stop his congregants from receiving the emails but the outside of his church people he does not have authority over. Unless of course the outsiders recognize him as an elder ordained by God

How does he have the right to dictate what emails his congregants can receive?

Under what authority?
 

intojoy

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Banned
I assume that I am under the authority of my elders. If they demand from me somethings that do not violate the law of Christ then I have no problem doing what is asked. If God is not sanctioning what they're asking then it is between God and the elders. I just do my part.
 

patrick jane

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I assume that I am under the authority of my elders. If they demand from me somethings that do not violate the law of Christ then I have no problem doing what is asked. If God is not sanctioning what they're asking then it is between God and the elders. I just do my part.

You don't have time to read all the posts against me or count the negs, but tell me who you think is being more like the Pharisees.
 

Lazy afternoon

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We don't issue divine death threats. At least pretend to have some perspective.

The Bible is clear on this.

They are not my words, they are the words of God.

Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

LA
 

musterion

Well-known member
The Bible is clear on this.

They are not my words, they are the words of God.

Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

LA

So not only do you know admit to making those threats on behalf of God, you're justifying it by saying the people you threaten aren't even saved.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
No "end-run" by the pastor should be made to restrict what a member reads. This is cultic behavior and beyond the bounds. AMR


Here I disagree, I think. The focus should not be on whatever statements, creeds or covenants parties have signed off on for membership of a local church. The bottom line should always be, What saith the Scripture?

If a fair hearing within the church finds the concerns or criticisms to be baseless, then the members in question have a choice: either drop their criticisms or leave. Conversely, if the church tests some aspect of its teaching or practice that's found unsupported by or contradictory to the Bible, then other decisions need to be made by everyone. But the Word is to be the focus, not human bylaws and such.

By enlarge, I agree that the pastor needs to cause as little offense as possible and focus on equipping the saints and teaching the flock how to handle the Word. But the OP assumed something when it asked if the pastor had the "authority" to do what he did. My initial responses were not intended so much to say the pastor did the right thing (honestly, I don't know) but in trying to generalize situations like this, one runs in to having to navigate "ought", "should", "might" and the differences between them. If one wants to push the issue, one could make the case that the pastor has every latitude because the soul of a man is in the balance. Paul, after all, said that all things were lawful to him but not all were expedient. I know he was talking about food (and went on to say he wouldn't be brought under the power of any) but here's the conundrum that is answered in two very different ways by different people. Does one avoid being submitted to what seems to them to be excessive pastoral authority to avoid legalism (and possibly abuse) or does one take the position that the authority is there by God's institution and thereby honor it as one honors God? We do the same thing with earthly authority - obeying it as far as possible and only disobeying when it directs us to disobey God.

So when Paul says what he says in I Cor 6:12, remember that he is saying it as a leader of the church - one endorsed by God as an apostle. Since a pastor carries similar authority (though not the same office), it isn't a stretch (in my mind) to say - generally - that as the one who has the responsibility to look out for the souls of the congregation, any means necessary so to do is (potentially) valid.

This may be a little tangential, but the parable in Luke 16:1-13 suggests to me that God has a similar view. Did the accused servant overstep his authority (or misuse it) in cutting the debt of the master's debtors before he lost his job? Certainly, one would say that he at least had questionable ethics in so doing. But the point that Jesus made was that he used money to a profitable end (the end that money ultimately serves being temporal) even if it was not "fair". He used his position (while he had it) wisely - to obtain a further end. Now, if the pastor's goal is to serve the congregation by (among other things) protecting them from undue outside influences, then for him to possibly overreach in terms of what some may think proper - when a man's soul is at stake - do you think the Lord will be more upset that the pastor overstepped his supposed authority or that he did all he could with the temporal resources he had to effect a more eternally beneficial end? Isn't that at least part of what Jesus was saying here :

And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Luke 16:9

Isn't the contrast to use the temporal things by whatever means possible to obtain a better eternal result?

So when you use the term "authority", I see that man before God on his own (isn't that what Stam is really saying?) answering primarily for the souls of those put in his charge. And if you want to say he doesn't have the authority to do whatever, then that authority is dictating his actions. And if that authority (the Word of God) reasons that man is autonomous in Him and so another can't have that authority over him, then what are we to do with the commands we are given to obey them that have authority over you? Is God divided? That - as I see it - is partly why churches have boards and confessions and creeds etc...(and I grew up largely in churches that did not). They are there for the safety of the congregation and the pastor. Not as substitutes for the Word of God. And I do agree that sometimes they can stifle (possibly even encourage) things that may be contrary to what is called for in the situation. But the difference is they have safety in numbers that the "loners" don't have. Both groups may be wrong at times, but the committee approach certainly seems more wise.

The church is not a bunch of self-directed sheep. And if one or two do get in trouble.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Acts 20:28

Are there no more overseers now that the apostles are long gone?

An added thought (sorry for going on longer than intended) :

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:45-51

Two points here :

1. If a man is made ruler over things (which one can't help but see that it includes people when speaking of our Lord's "things"), is he just offering suggestions?
2. Consider that the "smiting" of verses 48-9 implies (in part) mistreatment by NOT ruling properly but being lackadaisical in duty towards the flock. The natural outworking, then, is a church that identifies with the world ("eat and drink with the drunken"). Could it not be that the pastor fearing for that association in his church would try to prevent such influences in it?

I'm not saying that Cloud was wrong in this situation (I don't know and probably can't). But the fact that this is based on an assumption of authority implies a border to that authority. If a pastor is limited in acting in the best interests of the flock under his charge - simply because of a limitation of authority (didn't Christ say all authority was given to Him?), then at the very least, the issue of the eternal destiny of the sheep is taking second place to man's self-will (be it right or wrong).

If the pastors have some degree of rule over the flock, then this verse should give pause to those that want to assert their autonomy:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Luke 19:27
 
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Angel4Truth

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I assume that I am under the authority of my elders. If they demand from me somethings that do not violate the law of Christ then I have no problem doing what is asked. If God is not sanctioning what they're asking then it is between God and the elders. I just do my part.

In other words, you do the choosing, under what authority does your pastor have to choose for you?
 
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