ECT IS THERE NOT A 1P AND A 1P ?

[steko]

He is on that throne;

No...He isn't. He's sitting at the right hand of the Father in the Father's throne...expecting...

that is why David foresaw the resurrection as the enthronement in Acts 2:30-31's interp of such OT passages

,

Nope. It says Christ was raised 'to sit', not 'is sitting' on David's throne.

This is where He is now:

Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted,


This is 'when/then' He will reign from the throne of David:

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


...which of course, 1P1P ignores.

This is also why the string of verses is there in Acts 13:32 about David and from Isaiah, and being made a Son, etc.

Just as it was necessary that Christ would suffer and rise from the dead because it is written that He would, in the same way it is written that Messiah shall reign from David's throne Jerusalem therefore it is necessary that it shall come to pass.

If one has as justification to alter what is written concerning David's throne then one would have the same justification to alter what is written concerning Christ's suffering and rising.

What justification do you have for a selective prophetical hermeneutic?


Luk 24:45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
Luk 24:46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,

Perhaps your understanding needs to be opened. Huh?

And why the raised fallen tent of David is the Gentile's faith right then in that generation.

I recommend you seeking the Lord Himself for understanding something that you obviously don't.

The tabernacle of David is inextricably connected to Messiah's reign from the throne of David.

Isa 16:5 In mercy the throne will be established; And One will sit on it in truth, in the tabernacle of David, Judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness."

Acts 13 says this message of the resurrected Christ fulfilling everything of the promise to the fathers is a message that is for both Jews and Gentiles: v 26

Acts 13 does not say that Christ's resurrection was the fulfillment of everything promised to the fathers.

It says that according to the promise GOD has raised up unto Israel a Saviour.
That by condemning Him a prophecy was fulfilled

Act 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Act 13:27 they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act 13:28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
Act 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:


Then it says that all that was written of Him was fulfilled in His suffering and death but His being taken taken down from the tree, laid in a tomb and then raised is stated to have taken place after 'all that was written of Him' was fulfilled.
No doubt, His being taken down, laid in a tomb and being raised from the dead was also written and fulfilled, however the text does not include those details as part of what is said to be fulfilled in vs 27 and vs 29.


Act 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,


Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.


The promise made to the Fathers in vs 32 concerns Messiah's resurrection, receiving the sure mercies of David and His being begotten. It does not say that it concerns all of what was written in prophecy about Him and certainly doesn't say that all prophecy concerning Christ has been fulfilled.

You are reading something into the text that is just not there.

Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Then Paul shifts to the message of forgiveness of sins unto all that put their trust in Him.

With regard to prophetic Scripture, Christ said that since it is written then it is necessary that it be fulfilled.
There is a whole lot of prophecy that has been written that has not been fulfilled....yet.
There are no if's or maybe's in this regard.
It is necessary that it will be.

 

[Tambora]

No...He isn't. He's sitting at the right hand of the Father in the Father's throne...expecting...


,

Nope. It says Christ was raised 'to sit', not 'is sitting' on David's throne.

This is where He is now:

Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted,


This is 'when/then' He will reign from the throne of David:

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


...which of course, 1P1P ignores.



Just as it was necessary that Christ would suffer and rise from the dead because it is written that He would, in the same way it is written that Messiah shall reign from David's throne Jerusalem therefore it is necessary that it shall come to pass.

If one has as justification to alter what is written concerning David's throne then one would have the same justification to alter what is written concerning Christ's suffering and rising.

What justification do you have for a selective prophetical hermeneutic?


Luk 24:45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
Luk 24:46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,

Perhaps your understanding needs to be opened. Huh?




I recommend you seeking the Lord Himself for understanding something that you obviously don't.

The tabernacle of David is inextricably connected to Messiah's reign from the throne of David.

Isa 16:5 In mercy the throne will be established; And One will sit on it in truth, in the tabernacle of David, Judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness."




Acts 13 does not say that Christ's resurrection was the fulfillment of everything promised to the fathers.

It says that according to the promise GOD has raised up unto Israel a Saviour.
That by condemning Him a prophecy was fulfilled

Act 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Act 13:27 they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act 13:28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
Act 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:


Then it says that all that was written of Him was fulfilled in His suffering and death but His being taken taken down from the tree, laid in a tomb and then raised is stated to have taken place after 'all that was written of Him' was fulfilled.
No doubt, His being taken down, laid in a tomb and being raised from the dead was also written and fulfilled, however the text does not include those details as part of what is said to be fulfilled in vs 27 and vs 29.


Act 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,


Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.


The promise made to the Fathers in vs 32 concerns Messiah's resurrection, receiving the sure mercies of David and His being begotten. It does not say that it concerns all of what was written in prophecy about Him and certainly doesn't say that all prophecy concerning Christ has been fulfilled.

You are reading something into the text that is just not there.

Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Then Paul shifts to the message of forgiveness of sins unto all that put their trust in Him.

With regard to prophetic Scripture, Christ said that since it is written then it is necessary that it be fulfilled.
There is a whole lot of prophecy that has been written that has not been fulfilled....yet.
There are no if's or maybe's in this regard.
It is necessary that it will be.

Bullseye!
:BRAVO:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

no cell phone service,

Those in hell will have access to a wifi hotspot.

 

[steko]

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.


The Lord Jesus didn't say anything about changing the literal meaning of those prophesies.

If the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ were fulfilled literally then all the rest of the prophesies concerning Him must be fulfilled just as literally or else those who don't believe should call the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ...myth.

Pray that the Lord would open your understanding.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.


The Lord Jesus didn't say anything about changing the literal meaning of those prophesies.

If the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ were fulfilled literally then all the rest of the prophesies concerning Him must be fulfilled just as literally or else those who don't believe should call the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ...myth.

Pray that the Lord would open your understanding.

:up:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

3 feasts unfilfilled, one feast fulfilled in Hebrews but not realized by you,

How is it that the day of atonement (#6) was fulfilled before Pentecost (#4)?
Explain this for us ignoramuses.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

ignorance of the structure of shadow vs reality, child-training in the 'elements of the world' vs Christ, justification as the solution to the debt of sin, etc. Those are all your problems to clear up.

This is the mystical magic wand you wave over OT prophecies in order to ease your guilt about changing all of their meaning, and purpose. Satanic.

 

[Nihilo]

I don't believe that it was a valid crown in that sense.
I believe that the Lord Jesus will be coronated at His second coming when He takes His promised throne, the throne of David.

"Christ/Messiah" is regnal, and I believe that His name the Lord Jesus Christ is current, and not future only. He is in absentia (sitting on a higher throne) but is still validly King/Christ/Messiah now, according to the flesh. No other monarch ever rose from the dead.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

To reiterate, here are the 7 feast days:

(Spring)

1. Passover, fulfilled by the LORD in death
2. Unleavened Bread, fulfilled by the LORD in burial
3. First Fruits, fulfilled by the LORD in resurrection
4. Pentecost, fulfilled by the LORD in Acts 2

(Fall)

5. Trumpets
6. Day of Atonement
7. Tabernacles


Will IP, if he is indeed apt to teach, please instruct us line upon line and precept upon precept from the scriptures and show us how the last three have been already fulfilled?

 

[steko]

"Christ/Messiah" is regnal, and I believe that His name the Lord Jesus Christ is current, and not future only. He is in absentia (sitting on a higher throne) but is still validly King/Christ/Messiah now, according to the flesh. No other monarch ever rose from the dead.

:thumb:

 

[Interplanner]

:thumb:

Define 'according to the flesh.' The Greek expression would be 'kata sarka' as in 2 Cor 5:16, for which the NIV uses 'from a worldly point of view.'

 

[Interplanner]

How is it that the day of atonement (#6) was fulfilled before Pentecost (#4)?
Explain this for us ignoramuses.

Just read Hebrews. Apparently your cute little schemes don't matter.

 

[Interplanner]

To reiterate, here are the 7 feast days:

(Spring)

1. Passover, fulfilled by the LORD in death
2. Unleavened Bread, fulfilled by the LORD in burial
3. First Fruits, fulfilled by the LORD in resurrection
4. Pentecost, fulfilled by the LORD in Acts 2

(Fall)

5. Trumpets
6. Day of Atonement
7. Tabernacles


Will IP, if he is indeed apt to teach, please instruct us line upon line and precept upon precept from the scriptures and show us how the last three have been already fulfilled?

also, I think if you asked them, the apostles would say that the tabernacle things is fulfilled in Acts 15 about David's, however, you must not be aware that 'skeino' was used back in Jn 1 at the beginning for the whole ministry of Christ.

Jn 1:14: The Word became flesh and 'skeino' among us. 'Skeino' is to be a tabernacle, to 'tabernacle' a verb.

So the whole event was the new tabernacle.

It will help enormously if you get on the same page as the NT, which does not have tidy little 1st vs 2nd lists. It rather has the 'old' version of something vs the 'new.' The new is what happened in Christ.

 

[DAN P]

also, I think if you asked them, the apostles would say that the tabernacle things is fulfilled in Acts 15 about David's, however, you must not be aware that 'skeino' was used back in Jn 1 at the beginning for the whole ministry of Christ.

Jn 1:14: The Word became flesh and 'skeino' among us. 'Skeino' is to be a tabernacle, to 'tabernacle' a verb.

So the whole event was the new tabernacle.

It will help enormously if you get on the same page as the NT, which does not have tidy little 1st vs 2nd lists. It rather has the 'old' version of something vs the 'new.' The new is what happened in Christ.

Hi and the Greek word TABERNACLE also has many meaning and DWELT /SKENOO is just one of many , G4637 !
Yes it is a verb in the Aorist Tense and looks back to Jesus living on earth and in the ACTIVE VOICE as it was His decision to do and it is in the Indicative of a FACT !!

I do not see your point !!

So , when are you going to explain HOW you were saved in a 1P and 1P Salvation ??

Or explain how Peter was SAVED under the Law , I am waiting Greek scholar !!

dan p

 

[Interplanner]

Hi and the Greek word TABERNACLE also has many meaning and DWELT /SKENOO is just one of many , G4637 !
Yes it is a verb in the Aorist Tense and looks back to Jesus living on earth and in the ACTIVE VOICE as it was His decision to do and it is in the Indicative of a FACT !!

I do not see your point !!

So , when are you going to explain HOW you were saved in a 1P and 1P Salvation ??

Or explain how Peter was SAVED under the Law , I am waiting Greek scholar !!

dan p

That was for STP...

Peter was saved by grace alone as he said many times, calling Judaism the futile way of life of his forefathers...

I was saved by the same grace. God was in Christ dealing with the debt of mankind's sins...

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Just read Hebrews. Apparently your cute little schemes don't matter.

You do not understand the Day of Atonement. Christ died on the Passover (#1).
Why is the Day of Atonement much later (#6)?

You will never answer, because it is not in one of your commentaries.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

also, I think if you asked them, the apostles would say that the tabernacle things is fulfilled in Acts 15 about David's, however, you must not be aware that 'skeino' was used back in Jn 1 at the beginning for the whole ministry of Christ.

Jn 1:14: The Word became flesh and 'skeino' among us. 'Skeino' is to be a tabernacle, to 'tabernacle' a verb.

So the whole event was the new tabernacle.

It will help enormously if you get on the same page as the NT, which does not have tidy little 1st vs 2nd lists. It rather has the 'old' version of something vs the 'new.' The new is what happened in Christ.

Tabernacles is not about the LORD dwelling among us, you picked that up from a commentary...NOT from Leviticus.

You need to go back to square one.

 

[Interplanner]

Sorry I go back to John 1. You can't go back to sq 1 because you won't study Greek properly. If you are not going to regularly read it and translate it, you must use Greek commentary, which is a sin to you.

 

[Tnkrbl123!]

If you go far enough back in threads, you will see some that start with its definition as formed by Charles Ryrie, Dallas Theological Seminary, in his book DISPENSATIONALISM TODAY from the 60s. He came to the conclusion that there must be two programs running in the Bible, one for Jews and one for everyone else. He did this because of the frequent reference to the land in the OT, in Judaism. The two programs never meet, never intersect, never have the same purpose or out come. "Saved" does not mean the same thing in each.

My position is that, no matter what we find in the OT, the NT interp of the OT is the final meaning. If the sample, official sermon of Paul in Acts 13 says that 'whatever God promised to the fathers has been fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ' then I drop all the other things I find in the OT and go with that. I also notice there is no clear reference to a restored land of Israel in the NT, and that the eschatology of the NT about the end of time is very quickly transpired from one end to the other. The enemy of the believers is suddenly destroyed and the NHNE is made of the residue of this earth. Ie, there is no time for a restored state or theocracy of Israel.

Paul says the original "Jewish" blessing was the Gospel, in Gal 3:8,9. In fact, most of Gal 3 cannot be absorbed if you accept the premise of 2P2P. Gal 3 completely undoes it.

In other words, I find 2P2P to be a fraud and confusion.

Thanks for explaining! I agree when you say that the NT is the final interreptation of the OT.

 

[Danoh]

Thanks for explaining! I agree when you say that the NT is the final interreptation of the OT.

But what he actually means is that HIS misreading of his huge library's ENDLESS guessing of MEN INTO the passages - that his so called "reasoning" is supposedly based on - IS what the New Testament passages are talking about.

His entire approach is based on "well, we don't know for sure," and "perhaps this," that; the other.

Why?

Because his is HIS books based reasoning of the traditions of men and their EVER ENDLESS books "about" the Bible.

The fool - even his "2P2P" is based on something he read in one more of his EVER ENDLESS books "about."

One thing is certain - his self-delusion that a case is based on a string of "perhaps this...maybe that" would be laughed out of any court of law.

Not surprisingly, he takes great personal offence at having this pointed out to him.

At which point, he calls for dealing with the issues he deludes himself into thinking he is addressing - a man who absolutely refuses to cite the Scriptures his errors are supposedly reinforced by.

The guy is a joke.

Plain...and simple.