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This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.
Is there a Christian cosmology that doesn't include miracles?
- Thread starter tieman55
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And what would be the problem if animals also used some logical reasoning?
Nothing, just wondering if some of Stripe's argument was going toward the special place humans might have in his cosmology.
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Anyone without an extreme bias can see that humans are distinctly different from other animals.
Animals do everything (except one) that humans do. They use tools, they reason, etc. The one exception is that humans worship God.
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It's a bit more than just that. Animals use of tools will never lead them to build skyscrapers or ocean-liners.
True, but dont see the connection.
So, what does that mean? Humans are smarter than other animals. Humans use their intelligence to manipulate the environment to a much much greater extent than other animals do.
On the other hand, lions use their intelligence to pick out the critical zebra from the herd. Don't need to build skyscrapers. Dolphins and bats use sonar, we learned from them?
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The difference is enormous and obvious to anyone.
Do you have a point? Besides that you hate the one that created them all.
Why are ToLers so eager to accuse someone of hate? If I dont buy your particular theology---I hate your god. Your right wing politics---I hate Trump. Your belief that your god loves capitalism---i am a left winger who hates what your god has decreed???
Why is that?
I think we had a discussion about hate before and wound up with some comments about unicorns. I really do not feel like going there again.
And yes, the difference between humans and other animals is enormous and obvious. Based on evolutionary changes in morphology and chemistry and physics. And the last time we had a discussion about chemistry and physics in the brain, you switched the topic to my "origin story" and you never responded to the chemistry and physics comments.
Lon
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After a fashion. Did you read the link? Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of agreement, I'm just trying to show you the shadows. Often someone means 'their' logic like someone else has to adopt it, like they have the 'standard.' :nono: In a nutshell, this is all I'm saying. Logic isn't something imperial that we all agree upon. I didn't think Spock was always that logical, for example. Logic is formal thinking, as far as my definition, but I've seen when others get it wrong, thinking they are getting it right. Time is a measurement, a construct both in mind and in physical expression therefore it is the product of God's hands and consequently, our own to grasp it. There is no such thing as a minute, other than as we reckon a day and agree. There is no 12 inches, other than as we reckon a foot. Its just a created mental construct.
Or emotion? I've a fine I.Q. so am not anti-intellectual or anti-logic. I simply know 'mine' is limited. AMR's is/was higher than mine. Hilston's is higher. That's not the point, the point is, they are going to be able to grasp things, at this point, you or I likely cannot. It is wrong to say they are illogical when they argue, but that's what I've seen happen on TOL in conversations with these men, on points where I know what they are saying is exactly right. Necessarily, God meets us where we are at, where we live. While my ability to grasp it does indeed come from God, Salvation and Sanctification depend wholly on God: It isn't that I have God with however smart I am, but that He has a Hold of me lest I trust in a false idol of my own making (generally pride and I have to watch it all the time). Psalm 20:7 The beauty? Regardless of my our your Intelligence quotient, GOD is able to save to the uttermost those who are perishing. Hebrews 7:25
While I love TOL's iron sharpening iron, Proverbs 27:17 between people who truly care and is shown Proverbs 27:6, I trust fully on God to make and mold me in His image. James 4:13-17
Lon
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Lon
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We are made with morality, a sense of right and wrong among other 'imago deo' characteristics. In Genesis 1,2 man is created 'in God's image.' So while we share a lot of commonalities with animals, we are unique. I've seen science that shows animals with emotion, but a lion doesn't feel guilty for eating a zebra. Some people do (herbivores). An over-extension of what animals feel is not seeing the dividing lines between animals and ourselves though I'm not opposed to vegetarians. My daughter is one, simply due to taste.
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Emotion cannot lead you to understand anything. Only logic and reason can do that.
If you try to understand the Word of God based on emotion, you will fail badly.
You should already know that that is a non-sequitur.
Again, you're off on a tangent.
And He does so logically, rationally and reasonalbly.
It does not matter how intelligent someone is. If they are illogical.... they are wrong.
What does James 4:13-17 have to do with creation or logical reasoning?
Lon
Well-known member
Yet I've seen many "we just all need to get along" churches that stand for "Love is All You Need" and "Imagine." It is pure emoting. While I mostly agree with you, I do believe God's thoughts are not my thoughts AND that He confounds the wisdom (logic?) of men.
Your's or mine? Both? :think:
Only if you didn't go to the website I gave Stripe. There is a disagreement over what logic is, and no consensus from fairly logical men about what it is. It means, despite assertion from you or I, we don't get to define the standard. If you can show me scripture where God does, other than ones I know yet feel inadequate in reading them, let me know and thanks.
Agree, but I'm saying it isn't as tangible to describe. We find 'meaning' but some would argue that isn't logic. Some would argue 'conveying accurately an idea' but that idea wouldn't necessarily be logical. Between us, generously, we have a huge difference in paradigm regarding the Omni's of God etc. Open Theism is the antithesis of what I'd call 'logical.' I don't mean it isn't logical in some sense, but that's what I'm trying to convey, the inexact definitions. Further? God is molding us and therefore, whatever Logic is, God is making me more logical (assuming we all agree it is a godly attribute).
Until 1 John 3:2 we are all illogical. The only 'logic' I'd not hold suspect is what God gives as truth ("logic" perhaps).
His vs. ours. We simply have to trust in Christ more than our own grasp. In essence, my argument is wrapped up in Proverbs 3:5,6 "Lean not on your own understanding ("logic"). Anybody who says differently is doing it wrong. In Him -Lon
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
i hate unicorns
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I'm not sure what point that you're trying to make with this. Most churches don't use logical reasoning. They use emotionalism.
Why are you trying to define wisdom as logic? You cannot get to wisdom without logic.
I think that we can agree on an adequate concept of logic without perfect knowledge. Without logic, knowledge is not possible.
It seems like you want to keep redefining what logic means.
Not true. We don't need all knowledge to be logical. Logical understanding leads to knowledge.
Again, redefining logic.
Again, redefining logic.
Lon
Well-known member
Life is busy as a dad of young kids, and illustrating. He also felt as if he'd said most of what he wanted on TOL. He said on rare occasions he does a search for his name and sees what turns up.
Lon
Well-known member
If you look it up in the dictionary, one definition is a form of reasoned argument and the concepts passed by the interaction. To me? Vague. Another is 'truth' which I like, but only those of us in God can fully grasp this, so others and even many, as you say, in church, aren't as logical (holding concepts of truth). Proverbs 3:5,6 is the pinnacle of everything I'm trying to say: We are not to rely heavily or imperialize our own logic. It is inadequate, finite. This doesn't mean I don't use it everyday on TOL. Rather, my whole point is it isn't the pinnacle, lest we over-esteem it and make our finite mind concepts a god in our own image. It is a real danger. Think of it akin to pride, a few on TOL are poster children of pride and a belief their own logic prowess is incredibly better than their fellow posters.
So, why all of this? Because Knight said that he has changed drastically and that this 'smack' stuff was his fault (it isn't/wasn't, we all own our own behavior) but arrogance is a delusion, not logic. Whenever we talk about 'our' mental prowess, it is generally over and against another's and really, we cannot argue anybody into the kingdom of God. We are planters, waterers. God gives the increase. "Logic" argument, facts, truth, take us so far but only God changes hearts and minds so where one man will say "logic" I say "God."
You are an intelligent man, could you try to summarize what I just said and guess at the meaning? Further, can you state where you are in another paragraph? Thanks. I think it'd mean something and I'd like to get the sounding board feedback as well in this communication (also 'logic').
Let me try a simple demonstration: A basic math child says 1+1=2 He/she sees 1a+1= and says '2.' Simplistically, this answer could be right, and the logic isn't terrible, but there is a whole bunch of "doesn't know" left to be discovered. if a=1, 1x1 is 1 thus they'd be correct, but it is too concrete. The Algebraic form is an 'if' that is supposed to allow for variables as a working pattern for figuring out an answer in the set equation, if and as the variable changes (no need to tell most people, as most have had Algebra, but for any who may not).
I'm not sure if you read the link. As with the above definition, its left vague but while you are giving feedback, could you take a moment and give me your understanding of the term? Thanks.
Could you also discuss where you may differ with another person's understanding of the term?
Is it 'reasoning, truth, formal operation to prove something true, a grasp of absolutes?' Please and thanks. In Him -Lon