No you weren't, at least, you didn't quote me if you were, in which case how am I supposed to know?
You were attempting to change the subject. Start a new thread, or stay on topic.
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Is there a Christian cosmology that doesn't include miracles?
- Thread starter tieman55
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No you weren't, at least, you didn't quote me if you were, in which case how am I supposed to know?
You were attempting to change the subject. Start a new thread, or stay on topic.
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Your creation story is also a miracle, so don't try to dodge that problem.
What if God din't create the energy, what if He took it from Himself? What if it was a very personal gift, from His own being. That rings much more loving to me, much more like God did with His Son. "If" He took it from Himself that would not violate conservation of energy.
Energy is part of the physical universe. It did not exist prior to God creating the universe.
God is Spirit. He is not energy.
Granted God is a spiritual being, but that is not a full description of God is it?
God is powerful.
Does His power only come after creation?
So, your saying God wasn't always powerful?
Dose your cosmology force God to have no energy before creation?
If God wanted to have power before creation, your saying no, sorry you can't have any???
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You're conflating energy with power.
The power that God has is well beyond any "energy" in the physical universe.
Just change the wording then.
Are you saying God had/has no energy in Himself?
Are you saying you can prohibit Him from either possessing energy or energy being inherit in Him?
Are you saying that "if" God wanted energy He couldn't have had it before the first day of creation of the universe?
Can we agree that unseen energy can and does exist?
Is energy prohibited in the spirit realm?
7djengo7
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Here, you are conceding that God exists--unless, of course, you, by your phrase, "your deity", are not referring to God. And, if you are not referring to God, then to whom (if anyone) or what (if anything) are you referring?
You need God to exist in order to be able to say things about Him; even to be able to say such stupidities as, "God does not exist", and "I don't believe God exists".
7djengo7
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Of course you need God in order to be referring to God by your phrase, "your particular deity".
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God has all power which includes all energy, as energy is something that He created.
God is all powerful. Nobody can "prohibit" Him anything.
:dizzy:
First, energy is a physical phenomenon. Second, you cannot see energy, you only see its effects.
You ask the silliest questions. Energy is a physical phenomenon.
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]I agree with what you say above . . . but t[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]hat is not at all what I am hearing from you. [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]So, are you saying, are you Okay with? . . . God "could have" done creation without violating the physical laws. [/FONT]
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Again, you're making no sense.
There were no "physical laws" when God created something from nothing.
Now this is something that we can agree on. We are morons compared to our early ancestors.
OK, your unequivocally stating that God "could not" create the physical world without violating the physical laws, understood.
What if God wanted to create in a way that didn't violate physical laws? Could He do that? Yes or no
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No, I most certainly did NOT say that. Why are you lying?
God created the physical universe WITH physical laws.
Illogical and invalid question.
No.
There aren't many out there who would accuse me of having a brilliant mind, but even I can answer that one.
.E is only approximately equal to the rest. See my sig.
Godel.
A miracle is an act that defies the laws of physics. They're ready to understand. God does them.
.
Jesus rising from the dead is a miracle regardless of the technology available.
Kurt Godel.
Lon
Well-known member
You overstate. This isn't the thread for it (trolling) but you aren't even open to intelligent discussion. This is just mindless repetition that every nonthinking 'anti-' has ever produced. Why even come on a Christian forum, Jonah? Are you looking for miraculous conversion? Something that will finally convince you? The Lord Jesus Christ is the focal point where all Christians will stand and all antiChristians will stumble and fall. God declared Him as a place to stand or fall and no other choice, and being a God (the God) He gets to make the rules regardless of what you 'think you need.' You cannot live without Him, yet are such an angry man that you don't care to deal in reality, just your own little facts and you stand behind others (atheists or wrong scientists) to try and hide from what is true, instead "preferring" sight mostly unseen, in a different 'reality' whether it is true or not. Such isn't honest or truthful, Jonah. God exists. Most of us Christians can prove it, and you've never once, not one time, asked me (for instance) why I know. Not once. You don't want to know why, and worse, don't want to know. Why? Because you don't like Him, regardless of doing something about the poor condition of man that you complain about. You should do a one-on-one with someone on TOL to get to the bottom of your cognitive dissonance.
You just seem to be trolling the thread for no apparent reason other than "I don't like this topic" or "I don't believe this thread is valid." On either count, it wasn't addressed to you. Okay, but at least be honest if you are going to participate. ▲This isn't it▲
Nicer than banning him. He does know better but Godly grace is before him, even in simply posting. :up:
First calm down, please don't call me a liar. I am in no way trying to win an argument and or justify my thoughts. I am just trying to understand what you and other Christian believe.
Perhaps it is better asked this way.
Are you saying that God created our universe that has physical laws, in a manner that broke some or one of those physical laws? I think that can be a yes or a no ??
A. I think you are saying yes. But am not sure.
B. If your saying "yes" then could God make another universe with say different physical laws, in a manner that didn't violate those physical laws? In other words no miracles.
C. Or is it mandatory for creation to have miracles? Again , I think this can be yes or no, but I am not sure.
First thanks for your thoughtful responses. I agree with your definition of miracles above and don't in any way believe that God is not capable of them.
But I also am very careful not to give God credit or blame (actually that is a figure of speech, I never blame God) for anything that I am not absolutely sure that He had a hand in.
I am not convinced, at this point, that God is forced to violate His laws of physics to perform certain things He has done.
Miracles are not magic because the event actually occurs. I am sure your not saying God is a magician?
Since "miracles are not magic" can't cosmology at least theorize just how the so called miracles are done?
It seems to me that miracles and magic are so very different yet people don't see the difference like they should. To me, it seems like the goal of the cosmologist should be to distinguish the two ideas as to be as far apart as the universe is wide.
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- I'm calm
- You lied
God created the universe and its laws at the same time. The laws are only definitions/descriptions of the behavior of matter and energy.