Is the US national "debt" an illusion?

Nimrod

Member
Do you have a link to the website of one of these banks that act as a middleman for loans?

We are talking about fractional reserve.

You think it is okay.

I say it is fraudulent and counterfeits the currency. Therefore it is wrong and sinful. A child of God should never defend this system. Being TOL, I speak as a minority.

Following the logic.
If everyone goes to the bank at the same time. You get "bank runs". The bank can not provide money to everyone because it has committed fraud by counterfeiting the money.
First, you replied, another bank bails them out.
Second, you replied, government bails out banks.......

It has been an interesting topic, I have learned much. I now know where to start the next fractional reserve banking debate.
 

Tinark

Active member
We are talking about fractional reserve.

You think it is okay.

I say it is fraudulent and counterfeits the currency. Therefore it is wrong and sinful. A child of God should never defend this system. Being TOL, I speak as a minority.

Following the logic.
If everyone goes to the bank at the same time. You get "bank runs". The bank can not provide money to everyone because it has committed fraud by counterfeiting the money.
First, you replied, another bank bails them out.
Second, you replied, government bails out banks.......

It has been an interesting topic, I have learned much. I now know where to start the next fractional reserve banking debate.

An inability to honor a business agreement does _not_ mean fraud necessarily took place. It may have, or it may not have. Why are you unable to understand the difference?
 

Mocking You

New member
Where does the government get the money?

I presume the government requires banks to keep on deposit with the Federal Reserve enough funds in RESERVE to meet their obligations to fulfill the FDIC insurance program.

You want to get worked up over something else, somewhat similar to the bank not having enough money to cover all withdrawals simultaneously?

You may or may not be aware that the telephone company does not have enough switches and routers to handle all customers. They do have a certain percentage to cover what they calculate as "high demand usage". I think they have the ability to handle as many phone calls as if 40% of all users were to try to use the system simultaneously.

Now, what if everybody decided to call someone else at the same time? You'd get busy signals and "We're sorry, all of our lines are busy" messages. Don't you think that is despicable and fraudulent? The phone company claims to be an on demand service for customers yet they don't even have enough hardware to meet half its customers needs? Why....it's wrong and sinful.
 

Mocking You

New member
Tinark said:
I wouldn't confuse him with FIDC - he'll see it as an evil government institution that allows banks to get away with counterfeiting and fraud by bailing them out.

Following the logic.
If everyone goes to the bank at the same time. You get "bank runs". The bank can not provide money to everyone because it has committed fraud by counterfeiting the money.
First, you replied, another bank bails them out.
Second, you replied, government bails out banks.......

Tinark, you nailed that one!
 

Tinark

Active member
You may or may not be aware that the telephone company does not have enough switches and routers to handle all customers. They do have a certain percentage to cover what they calculate as "high demand usage". I think they have the ability to handle as many phone calls as if 40% of all users were to try to use the system simultaneously.

Excellent point, never really thought about it that way. But, yes, the concept is quite similar. Nimrod should accuse the telephone company of fraud for having more customer accounts than their system can handle in a scenario where every customer is using the system at the exact same time if his logic is consistent.
 

Mocking You

New member
Excellent point, never really thought about it that way. But, yes, the concept is quite similar. Nimrod would accuse the telephone company of fraud for having more customer accounts than their system can handle in a scenario where every customer is using the system at the exact same time, under his logic.

Imagine if the two situations dovetailed. During a panic and a bank run, Nimrod tries to withdraw his money from the bank using the phone and he can't get through because the phone company is using "fractional reserve routing".
 

Nimrod

Member
I presume the government requires banks to keep on deposit with the Federal Reserve enough funds in RESERVE to meet their obligations to fulfill the FDIC insurance program.

Interesting article below. What happens is the government or Federal Reserve prints, or add a bunch of zeros to the bank accounts, to supply the funds it needs for the FDIC. Problem is, there is now additional trilllion dollars just printed. And once in the bank again, they pull fractional reserve on the newly printed money. Hence major inflation. On and on it goes.



From http://mises.org/library/bank-crisis


The FDIC had to perform this bailout, everyone said, because "otherwise the financial system would collapse." That is, everyone would find out that the entire fractional-reserve system is held together by lies and smoke and mirrors, that is, by an Establishment con.

Once the public found out that their money is not in the banks, and that the FDIC has no money either, the banking system would quickly collapse. Indeed, even financial writers are worried since the FDIC has less than 0.7% of deposits they "insure," estimated soon be down to only 0.2% of deposits. Amusingly enough, the "safe" level is held to be 1.5%! The banking system, in short, is a house of cards, the FDIC as well as the banks themselves.

Many free-market advocates wonder: why is it that I am a champion of free markets, privatization, and deregulation everywhere else, but not in the banking system? The answer should now be clear: Banking is not a legitimate industry, providing legitimate service, so long as it continues to be a system of fractional-reserve banking: that is, the fraudulent making of contracts that it is impossible to honor.

The only reason the FDIC is still standing while the FSLIC and private insurance companies have collapsed, is because the people believe that, even though it technically doesn't have the money, if push came to shove, the Federal Reserve would simply print the cash and give it to the FDIC. The FDIC in turn would give it to the banks, not even burdening the taxpayer as the government has done in the recent bailouts. After all, isn't the FDIC backed by "full faith and credit" of the federal government, whatever that may mean?

Yes, the FDIC could, in the last analysis, print all the cash and give it to the banks, under cover of some emergency decree or statute. But . . . there's a hitch. If it does so, this means that all the trillion or so dollars of bank deposits would be turned into cash. The problem, however, is that if the cash is redeposited in the banks, their reserves would increase by that hypothetical trillion, and the banks could then multiply new money immediately by ten-to-twenty trillion, depending upon their reserve requirements. And that, of course, would be unbelievably inflationary, and would hurl us immediately into 1923 German-style hyper-inflation. And that is why no one in the Establishment wants to discuss this ultimate fail-safe solution. It is also why it would be far better to suffer a one-shot deflationary contraction of the fraudulent fractional-reserve banking system, and go back to a sound system of 100% reserves.
 

Nimrod

Member
Excellent point, never really thought about it that way. But, yes, the concept is quite similar. Nimrod should accuse the telephone company of fraud for having more customer accounts than their system can handle in a scenario where every customer is using the system at the exact same time if his logic is consistent.

Telephone lines is not money.

Step 1. Bank runs
Step 2. Bank bails out bank
Step 3. Bank on bank runs
Step 4. Government bails out bank
Step 5. Government prints a trillion dollars to bail out banks, the newly printed trillion finds its way back into the banks where fractional reserve goes for another round...........
Step 6. Inflation.
 

Tinark

Active member
Imagine if the two situations dovetailed. During a panic and a bank run, Nimrod tries to withdraw his money from the bank using the phone and he can't get through because the phone company is using "fractional reserve routing".

:rotfl:
 

Tinark

Active member
Telephone lines is not money.

Step 1. Bank runs
Step 2. Bank bails out bank
Step 3. Bank on bank runs
Step 4. Government bails out bank
Step 5. Government prints a trillion dollars to bail out banks, the newly printed trillion finds its way back into the banks where fractional reserve goes for another round...........
Step 6. Inflation.

Ok, but the issue of government involvement in the financial/banking system is a completely separate issue from your claims of fractional reserve banking being "counterfeiting" and "fraud", would you agree?

Bank runs and bank failures leading to panics and recessions are as old as banking itself. Whether the government should do anything about such events is a _completely_ different issue, which you seem to have some inability to separate.
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
Ok, but why should people be restricted in what they are allowed to do with their own personal property like that? What is the benefit of having the state have this significant of a level of interference in the free market?
What personal property?

NFRB has been tried and it failed. :D


Seriously, if a bank was required to have 100% reserves on hand before making a loan.....there would never be any loans made. The bank would charge fees to depositors for them to use their bank vaults to safely store their money. Money would come in and no money would go out. This would be known as a money storage facility, or a money warehouse.
Yes, it sure would hurt economic development. But there's something about FRB that I don't like.
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
Their cash.

The point of fractional reserve banking is that they lend more than they actually have. Cash, or 'personal property', only backs part of it. So it doesn't seem accurate to say that regulations surrounding that are infringing on personal property rights.
 

Tinark

Active member
The point of fractional reserve banking is that they lend more than they actually have. Cash, or 'personal property', only backs part of it. So it doesn't seem accurate to say that regulations surrounding that are infringing on personal property rights.

No, they can not. No bank can ever loan out more cash than it has obtained control/ownership of.

Fractional reserve banking is nothing more than loaning deposits obtained from person A to person B (at this point, the cash is no longer under the banks control/ownership), who then spends it with person C, and then person C deposits that cash back with the bank (putting that cash back under the ownership of the bank), which is then loaned out to person D.

Notice that the bank must first obtain control back over that cash, with the deposit by person C, before it can loan it out to person D.
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
No, they can not. No bank can ever loan out more cash than it has obtained control/ownership of.

Fractional reserve banking is nothing more than loaning deposits obtained from person A to person B (at this point, the cash is no longer under the banks control/ownership), who then spends it with person C, and then person C deposits that cash back with the bank (putting that cash back under the ownership of the bank), which is then loaned out to person D.

Notice that the bank must first obtain control back over that cash, with the deposit by person C, before it can loan it out to person D.
I don't think that's right. The money supply expands through FRB. Unless that's only when other banks get involved. It's been a while since I've read about this stuff.
 

Tinark

Active member
I don't think that's right. The money supply expands through FRB. Unless that's only when other banks get involved. It's been a while since I've read about this stuff.

What part is wrong?

The FRB is a different matter and level of complexity all together. We need to agree on the basics first before adding additional elements.
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
No, they can not. No bank can ever loan out more cash than it has obtained control/ownership of.

Fractional reserve banking is nothing more than loaning deposits obtained from person A to person B (at this point, the cash is no longer under the banks control/ownership), who then spends it with person C, and then person C deposits that cash back with the bank (putting that cash back under the ownership of the bank), which is then loaned out to person D.

Notice that the bank must first obtain control back over that cash, with the deposit by person C, before it can loan it out to person D.

Wikipedia says they can
:

"Reserve requirements affect the potential of the banking system to create transaction deposits. If the reserve requirement is 10%, for example, a bank that receives a $100 deposit may lend out $90 of that deposit. If the borrower then writes a check to someone who deposits the $90, the bank receiving that deposit can lend out $81. As the process continues, the banking system can expand the initial deposit of $100 into a maximum of $1,000 of money ($100+$90+81+$72.90+...=$1,000). In contrast, with a 20% reserve requirement, the banking system would be able to expand the initial $100 deposit into a maximum of $500 ($100+$80+$64+$51.20+...=$500). Thus, higher reserve requirements should result in reduced money creation and, in turn, in reduced economic activity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking
 

Mocking You

New member

Wikipedia is wrong. <big surprise>


If the reserve requirement is 10%, for example, a bank that receives a $100 deposit may lend out $90 of that deposit. If the borrower then writes a check to someone who deposits the $90,

Bank is now "out" $10. Original borrower still owes the bank $100.

the bank receiving that deposit can lend out $81. As the process continues,

Bank is now "out" $19. Two borrowers now owe the bank $171.

and so on and so on...

the banking system can expand the initial deposit of $100 into a maximum of $1,000 of money ($100+$90+81+$72.90+...=$1,000). In contrast, with a 20% reserve requirement, the banking system would be able to expand the initial $100 deposit into a maximum of $500 ($100+$80+$64+$51.20+...=$500)

Yes, and most banks reserve requirements are around 50% - 55%. (Or they were in the late 1990's, last time I knew for sure.)
 
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