Theology Club: Is the Future Open?

[intojoy]

QUOTE=Jerry Shugart;3830421]So are you saying that God first willed all men to be saved then decided that all would not be saved?



Yes. Obviously that is what I said.


That certainly is what I understand by your words here:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Can u stick to one Q at a time?

Can you stick to one post at a time?

Yes. Obviously that is what I said.

So you saying that God first willed all men to be saved then decided that all would not be saved.

In other words, God changed His mind.

The word "immutable" means "not capable of or susceptible to change."

So according to your ideas God cannot be described as being immutable because He changed His mind. But at the same time you say that He is immutable.

 

[intojoy]

Can you stick to one post at a time?







So you saying that God first willed all men to be saved then decided that all would not be saved.



In other words, God changed His mind.



The word "immutable" means "not capable of or susceptible to change."



So according to your ideas God cannot be described as being immutable because He changed His mind. But at the same time you say that He is immutable.

I don't see it as changing His mind because He still desires that all men be saved, He still has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Here's what I think is the proper attitude of what really is happening.

God, who exists outside of time, decreed that the fall of man would be permitted to happen with Adam. That event would default all after Adam as being born condemned and lost, headed for hell. But God desired that man would be saved, that all men would be saved however, God did not include that desire in His decree to save man, only the Elect will receive salvation. Just because God willed or desired that all men be saved does not mean that God has to act according to that desire and obviously He did not include for all men to be saved even if it was His sincere desire. Because God can and often does place self limitations on Himself this objection of yours is not a problem.

 

[journey]

Put differently, God doesn't force any man or woman to accept or reject Christ as Lord and Saviour. No man or woman knows what God knows, so all have free will to choose. God could easily make us all saved, but that would remove our free will. God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of all doesn't effect our free will at all.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God, who exists outside of time, decreed that the fall of man would be permitted to happen with Adam. That event would default all after Adam as being born condemned and lost, headed for hell.

Please provide the Scriptures which you think proves this idea.

 

[steko]

I don't see it as changing His mind because He still desires that all men be saved, He still has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Here's what I think is the proper attitude of what really is happening.

God, who exists outside of time, decreed that the fall of man would be permitted to happen with Adam.

Is GOD eternally decreeing or did there come a point when He began decreeing?

 

[intojoy]

Please provide the Scriptures which you think proves this idea.

No, I think I'll play some video games now.

 

[intojoy]

Is GOD eternally decreeing or did there come a point when He began decreeing?

I don't really know. I would guess that every decision concerning the future has already been pre planned by God.

 

[steko]

I don't really know. I would guess that every decision concerning the future has already been pre planned by God.

Preplanned from forever, as eternally fixed in the mind which GOD is?

Or was GOD free to make a decision at some point concerning the creation which was to be?

Sounds sequential, to me.

 

[Lighthouse]

Richard Trench writes, "Χρόνος is time, contemplated simply as such; the succession of moments" (Trench's New Testament Synonyms of the New Testament).

That's all you've got? You didn't even broach my other point. Weak.

 

[intojoy]

Is the Future Open?

Preplanned from forever, as eternally fixed in the mind which GOD is?



Or was GOD free to make a decision at some point concerning the creation which was to be?



Sounds sequential, to me.

Right. But the sequential planing in my view has already taken place in regard to human salvation.

 

[steko]

Right. But the sequential planing in my view has already taken place in regard to human salvation.

I'm not talking about salvation at this point, necessarily. I'm speaking of the passing of events before anything was created.

I'm saying that if there was any sequence within GOD, then there was a 'before' and an 'after', which implies the passing of events......time.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's all you've got? You didn't even broach my other point. Weak.

You are a joke!

First, you did not even have the right Greek word when you said:

In fact, the word in the original Greek is αἰώνιος which is defined as...

That is not the Greek word in the verse under discussion. Then you said that the Greek word does not mean time. But when I quoted a Greek expert who says that it does you just ignored it:

Richard Trench writes, "Χρόνος is time, contemplated simply as such; the succession of moments" (Trench's New Testament Synonyms of the New Testament).

The only thing which you have contributed to this thread is confusion.

 

[intojoy]

I'm not talking about salvation at this point, necessarily. I'm speaking of the passing of events before anything was created.



I'm saying that if there was any sequence within GOD, then there was a 'before' and an 'after', which implies the passing of events......time.

How is that possible?

 

[Delmar]

Being bound by time implies that God cannot be existing in the future at the same moment when He is existing during the present time.

So you are saying God can make a rock so big He can not lift it? God is bound, if you will, by the fact that His existence is a reality! He is not real and fictional at the same time. He is not and never can be absurd! Only a philosopher could see this as a limitation.

 

[Delmar]

How is that possible?

God is real.

 

[intojoy]

God is real.

I meant how is it possible there was a before and after with God. If God exists outside of time then He knows everything past present future simultaneously. That's how I'm understanding that. I could be wrong, but I am not struggling to make sense of it. I don't see the possibility for an open future with an all knowing God. For the evil one sure. The future is not known by satan. His doom is known but as a likewise created being he cannot know as God knows and God knows it all.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So you are saying God can make a rock so big He can not lift it? God is bound, if you will, by the fact that His existence is a reality! He is not real and fictional at the same time. He is not and never can be absurd! Only a philosopher could see this as a limitation.

You assume that "time" has always existed and therefore God is bound by time. But consider what Paul said here:

"in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time" (Titus 1:2).​

The eternal state is a timeless existence and God existed in eternity before time began and He continues to exist in a timeless state.

 

[steko]

How is that possible?

I don't know.
I'm just asking the question.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

You assume that "time" has always existed and therefore God is bound by time. But consider what Paul said here:

"in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time" (Titus 1:2).​

The eternal state is a timeless existence and God existed in eternity before time began and He continues to exist in a timeless state.

So you are not an open theist? Got it.

AMR