Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Aimiel]

Do you have proof that a soul cannot actually disintegrate, be destroyed, become extinct, be truly terminated from existence?

Here you go:

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[God's Truth]

I don't think you're following. See my previous posts on ECT linked earlier here (which is a compile of some of my posts made previously in this thread).

I was describing the position of 'soul-death' (call it 'annihilation' if you like) which is the complete, final and eternal destruction (disintegration) of a soul. Souls who suffer this 'second death' are NO MORE. They no longer exist as living conscious individual personalities. They have fully 'perished'. Those who suffer the 'second death' do not live on at all, in any form whatsoever, except perhaps in other's memories and the collective consciousness. Is this clear? In other words, at the time of a soul's event of 'dying' (disintegration).....its conscious existence/personality...is dissolved (no matter how long it lives on in a spirit or ethereal form after physical death). Following? (this is the view of 'annihilation' as described by the author of the thread and others taking on this 'interpretation' of scripture)

Only God can destroy body and soul in hell, and what God is going to do to those in the lake of fire hell is have them be tormented day and night, that is what the word of God says.
Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Now provided you have read and 'understand' my broader views and insights upon the subject already shared, you'll see I also explore and expound a purely spiritualist view, which does hold that souls continue on after physical death,

Excuse me for not knowing you believed in the life of the spirit after the death of the body.

and continue to progress towards greater spiritual purity and perfection, either in the spirit-world and/or within a program of continual re-incarnations.

That is too bad.
Our spirits are us without the physical body…we do not change spirits after this life.

In this sense, souls are more or less eternal, and further have immortality-potential, as offspring of 'God'. This view generally does not accept a concept of 'annihilation', especially if it is more 'universalist' in nature, where all souls eventually/ultimately fulfill the purpose of their existence, and attain union/harmony with Source.

Sounds like you believe things that are not from God.

 

[godrulz]

Here you go:

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev. 20:10-15 seals the deal.

 

[Aimiel]

Rev. 20:10-15 seals the deal.

Amen. Ignoring Scripture is NOT a good thing to do. :thumb:

 

[freelight]

where do we start?

where do we start?

Only God can destroy body and soul in hell, and what God is going to do to those in the lake of fire hell is have them be tormented day and night, that is what the word of God says.
Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

We've already addressed the assumption of ECT, - link provided on all my posts addressing the issue, challenging the morality, logic and insanity of this view. Others here take a more 'biblically-contexted' view of 'soul-death',...mine is not limited to such since I draw from many schools , and open to innovations. The Urantia Papers have a more detailed view of souls that suffer 'disintegration'. All else is 'definition', 'interpretation' and 'semantics'.

Excuse me for not knowing you believed in the life of the spirit after the death of the body.

Well, as a spiritualist holding the general view of Spiritualism, its held that all souls continue on in their spirit-form and individual consciousness after shedding the material body. Its a view held by most theists, some kind of continuation of consciousness after death. Those who suffer the second death however, are no longer conscious or living after undergoing total distintegration of individual existence (as a conscious personality) - this 'death' is final and eternal. - this is the 'annihiliationist' position. Again, just another point of view.

That is too bad.
Our spirits are us without the physical body…we do not change spirits after this life.

Eternal progression of the soul after physical death, or thru a series of physical incarnations is not 'too bad' but a bountiful provision of Love since all life-experiences and environements are provided the soul for its learning and development. In 'reincarnation'...there is not a change of 'spirit' necessarily, but a new body that the soul uses as a vehicle of personality expression. - so I'm not sure where you're getting an idea of 'changing spirits' after this life. (one may take on different modes or manner of 'spirit' in any given incarnation, but such is a matter of defining). After physical death, only the material elements are disintegrated...while soul and spirit continues on in some individual form, as it continues its life journey. If 'soul-death' is a real possibility (at any time)...then if this event transpires, the soul is NO MORE. Its individual life and personality is dissolved/disintegrated....absorbed back into the primal elements. There are more details and speculations about the 'process' here, if you want to get into the metaphysics of it, but views may differ.

Sounds like you believe things that are not from God.

This is a peculiar assumption, assuming that you have an absolute knowledge of what is or is not from 'God'. It might behoove you to consider that there is more than what you assume or know about 'reality' or 'God', beyond some pre-conceived notion that all is contained in the Bible only, furthermore conditioned by so many 'interpretations' that you've picked that suit your current philosophical disposition or understanding. However points of view or knowledge is subject to change with new light and understanding. There are many who even change religious traditions, customs and persuasions....so you don't even know if your own 'concept' of 'God' or 'reality' is wholly 'valid' since at any moment new revelation may dawn turning you in another direction. The truth may be that know knows anything but their own existence, while all else is 'speculation'.

Reality itself however never changes its fundamental essence, although the landscape of ideas, concepts and opinions may toss to and fro in the ocean of mind. The light that ever shines behind consciousness and illuminates all that exists....is the primal reality. The mind obscures/distorts/confuses all else via 'interpretation'.

In any case, whether you believe in some kind of 'soul-death' or 'ECT', that's an 'opinion', until/unless absolute proof can be had on the matter. So have fun with it if you like.


pj

 

[Timotheos]

Actually, the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are in hell, awaiting judgment, when they'll be cast into the Lake of Fire to be tormented for ever and ever in flames that never go out and with worms eating them which never die. How you cannot understand Scripture is WAY beyond me. Being 'destroyed' in this temporal realm of time and space is quite different than being destroyed in the spirit realm of eternity. You simply avoid understanding that difference because it doesn't fit your phony theology du jour.

No, according to Jude 1:7, the destruction that happened to Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of the coming punishment. You ASSUME that they are in hell, awaiting judgment, but that is not what the Bible actually says. I understand scripture, I just don't accept what you hve added to scripture. I understand that YOU think what I believe is "phony theology du jour". That is because you are fully committed to the false view which is not scriptural. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. The penalty is destruction, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is shown as an example of the coming destruction of the wicked. You are simply avoiding this truth, so that you don't have to give up your false dogma. Nothing I'm telling you is not directly and specifically said in scripture. I think you should just accept what the Bible says. Jesus said that the body and soul are destroyed in Gehenna. Your claim that the soul is not destroyed in Gehenna contradicts the words of Jesus, the Son of God. Are you putting your opinion above His? Are you saying that Jesus was just a man, and not the Son of God?

 

[Timotheos]

Which scripture(s) have you 'interpreted' to mean soul-death? I don't see such nonsense anywhere in The Holy Bible.

Matthew 10:28, Ezekiel 18:4

See also Matthew 7:13, Revelation 20:14, Psalm 37:10 and 20, Luke 13:3 and 5, Romans 6:23, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Jude 1:7 and there are many more, but really Matthew 10:28 says it all. If you disagree with the Holy Son of God, there is not much I am going to be able to say to convince you. Good Luck.

 

[God's Truth]

No, according to Jude 1:7, the destruction that happened to Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of the coming punishment. You ASSUME that they are in hell, awaiting judgment, but that is not what the Bible actually says. I understand scripture, I just don't accept what you hve added to scripture. I understand that YOU think what I believe is "phony theology du jour". That is because you are fully committed to the false view which is not scriptural. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. The penalty is destruction, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is shown as an example of the coming destruction of the wicked. You are simply avoiding this truth, so that you don't have to give up your false dogma. Nothing I'm telling you is not directly and specifically said in scripture. I think you should just accept what the Bible says. Jesus said that the body and soul are destroyed in Gehenna. Your claim that the soul is not destroyed in Gehenna contradicts the words of Jesus, the Son of God. Are you putting your opinion above His? Are you saying that Jesus was just a man, and not the Son of God?

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

 

[Timotheos]

Jude 1:7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Since Sodom and Gomorrah are set forth as an example, what happened to them is what will happen to the wicked on Judgment Day. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. They were not kept around for an eternity being tortured. That settles it.

 

[God's Truth]

Jude 1:7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Since Sodom and Gomorrah are set forth as an example, what happened to them is what will happen to the wicked on Judgment Day. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. They were not kept around for an eternity being tortured. That settles it.

That scripture does not say no one will be tormented day and night for ever.

 

[Timotheos]

That scripture does not say no one will be tormented day and night for ever.

Reread the thread. My point was that Jude 7 is the worst verse to use to "prove" eternal conscious torment. The best you can say is that it doesn't say there is no torment. But even that is not true. It says the destruction of Sodom is the example. Destruction is not eternal conscious torment.

 

[God's Truth]

Reread the thread. My point was that Jude 7 is the worst verse to use to "prove" eternal conscious torment. The best you can say is that it doesn't say there is no torment. But even that is not true. It says the destruction of Sodom is the example. Destruction is not eternal conscious torment.

You reread the thread.

You make no sense. You said, "My point was that Jude 7 is the worst verse to use to "prove" eternal conscious torment"---I did not use that scripture to prove it.

That scripture shows people will be punished with fire.

That scripture does not show that at the end times, the torment will stop. You are injecting your beliefs into that scripture.

 

[Timotheos]

Okay then, don't reread where Jude 7 was used to attempt to "prove" ECT. And don't reread the post where I showed that it doesn't. Your stubbornness doesn't help your position.

 

[Aimiel]

I think you should just accept what the Bible says.

I do...

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You're the one who denies this verse is Truth. You call it: symbolism (mainly because it clashes with your false teachings. I call it: plain and simple Truth.

 

[Aimiel]

Matthew 10:28, Ezekiel 18:4

See also Matthew 7:13, Revelation 20:14, Psalm 37:10 and 20, Luke 13:3 and 5, Romans 6:23, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Jude 1:7 and there are many more, but really Matthew 10:28 says it all. If you disagree with the Holy Son of God, there is not much I am going to be able to say to convince you. Good Luck.

I don't take 'soul-death' from any of those verses, partly because it isn't in there and partly because it would violate Scriptures which describe eternal conscious torment elsewhere in God's Holy Word. Can you be more specific about why you think soul-death is in Scripture? I just don't see that it is.

 

[God's Truth]

Okay then, don't reread where Jude 7 was used to attempt to "prove" ECT. And don't reread the post where I showed that it doesn't. Your stubbornness doesn't help your position.

Okay, I won't.

 

[Timotheos]

I don't take 'soul-death' from any of those verses, partly because it isn't in there and partly because it would violate Scriptures which describe eternal conscious torment elsewhere in God's Holy Word. Can you be more specific about why you think soul-death is in Scripture? I just don't see that it is.

How do you not get the message that souls die from Ezekiel 18:4 which says "the soul who sins shall die"? How did you miss the fact that the soul can be destroyed when you read Matt 10:28 which says "...who can destroy both body and soul..."?

The fact is that these verses plainly tell you that the soul does die if the person does not receive eternal life from Jesus Christ. Just denying this will not change what the Bible says.

 

[Timotheos]

Okay, I won't.

No problem. I was trying to help you.

 

[Aimiel]

How do you not get the message that souls die from Ezekiel 18:4 which says "the soul who sins shall die"? How did you miss the fact that the soul can be destroyed when you read Matt 10:28 which says "...who can destroy both body and soul..."?

The fact is that these verses plainly tell you that the soul does die if the person does not receive eternal life from Jesus Christ. Just denying this will not change what the Bible says.

I see that as a use of the word, "soul," in the vernacular. In other words, it's like saying, "How many souls were in the meeting last night?" Men are living souls. We have a spirit, live in a body and are a living soul.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The body was formed from the dust in the ground. The spirit was added from God's Breath. When Adam became alive, he was then called: "a living soul." He is a living person.

The term, "soul-death," is meaningless, since it's redundant.

 

[God's Truth]

No problem. I was trying to help you.

I am the one who is trying to help you, but you will not listen.