Like the trinity and most other Christian doctrines, the biblical, historical, orthodox views are based on all the relevant evidence (grammar, word studies, context, theology, historical background, etc.). Demanding one verse to prove everything is not reasonable. However, the verses that we do give are dismissed or twisted, so Bible hop scotch will not work with Tim (it is the same game that anti-trins play...they think a verse that shows Christ's humanity somehow negates ones that show His Deity...or verses that show that God is Father precludes the possibility of the Son being God).
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
It's true that I do not accept verses that do not say the wicked go to hell to be tormented alive forever as proof that the wicked go to hell to tormented alive forever.
You also have not demonstrated the proof of your doctrine in any other way, so let's not pretend that you have, okay? I haven't dismissed any verse, however you have dismiss plenty. Tell me now, why shouldn't I believe Romans 6:23, John 3:16, and 2 Thess 1:9?
You just admitted that there is not a verse in the Bible that agrees with your doctrine, yet you still want to hang on to it. That's okay, as long as you don't think your doctrine is supported by scripture.
You also have not demonstrated the proof of your doctrine in any other way, so let's not pretend that you have, okay? I haven't dismissed any verse, however you have dismiss plenty. Tell me now, why shouldn't I believe Romans 6:23, John 3:16, and 2 Thess 1:9?
You just admitted that there is not a verse in the Bible that agrees with your doctrine, yet you still want to hang on to it. That's okay, as long as you don't think your doctrine is supported by scripture.
Godrulz, I want to make sure that I understand you, and do not misrepresent you in any way. I can find at least 2 dozen verses in the bible that directly and specifically back up what I am saying. If I search, I can find at least 75 passages that directly support the doctrine that the wicked perish as a result of sin. And you admit that you can't find even one verse that says the same thing you are saying. And this doesn't concern you in the least? This is not a problem for you and your theology? You don't even feel there is a need to check out what the Bible has to say? You have no doubts that the doctrine that you can't support with even one verse is true? And you have no doubt that the doctrine that I support is false, even though verse after verse after verse directly supports the doctrine? And these verses are not merely supportive, they state the doctrine straight out. Verses like "The soul who sins shall die", "The wicked shall perish", "The wicked shall be no more", "Unless you repent you will likewise perish", "They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction", "The wicked will be destroyed, just as Sodom and Gemorrah were destroyed", "Sin when it is grown brings forth death", "Those that do these things deserve death", "Will not perish but will have eternal life"...
But no worries for you? Even though the Bible does not support your doctrine and the Bible fully supports the opposite doctrine, you are right and I am wrong, and the Bible is wrong. Kudos for your hubris.
But no worries for you? Even though the Bible does not support your doctrine and the Bible fully supports the opposite doctrine, you are right and I am wrong, and the Bible is wrong. Kudos for your hubris.
Yes the wicked will say "we all have to die???" this doctrine of annihilation has the same purpose of the serpent who said to Adam "you will not die" so now the same voice says "you will not endure everlasting punishment"
It strengthens the hand of the sinner and is a treacherous doctrine.
God's Truth
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Deleted duplicate post.
God's Truth
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Timotheos,
I have not read any of the posts, just these last few, so please excuse me if what I say was already addressed.
Could you explain some things to me?
If the soul cannot be killed, then how do those not saved just stop existing?
In Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Could you explain to me how eternal life is in fact eternal, but eternal punishment is not really eternal punishment, since the dead will not know they are dead?
John 17:5 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Can you explain this to me?
Mark 9:48 where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
When in hell, if the worms do not die, how is it that the unsaved will die?
Can you explain this to me? How does anyone die if death is thrown in the lake of fire?
Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
I have not read any of the posts, just these last few, so please excuse me if what I say was already addressed.
Could you explain some things to me?
If the soul cannot be killed, then how do those not saved just stop existing?
In Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Could you explain to me how eternal life is in fact eternal, but eternal punishment is not really eternal punishment, since the dead will not know they are dead?
John 17:5 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Can you explain this to me?
Mark 9:48 where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
When in hell, if the worms do not die, how is it that the unsaved will die?
Can you explain this to me? How does anyone die if death is thrown in the lake of fire?
Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Hello GT
Thanks for asking.
First of all I believe the soul can die. As you pointed out Jesus said body and soul can be destroyed in Gehenna. Also Ezekiel 18 says that the soul who sins shall die.
2nd you asked how a soul that is destroyed can be punished. According to the Bible, destruction IS the punishment.
3rd. You asked about the worms. That verse doesn't say the dead souls are conscious of torment for all eternity. Read Isaiah 66. It says that the worms are consuming dead bodies, not living dead souls.
Lastly, you asked how people can die the 2nd death when death itself is thrown into the lake of fire. Rev isn't meant to be taken literally. But the truth is represented by the symbols in Revelation. After the wicked die the second death because the wages of sin is death, then death will no longer be necessary. Everyone who is left will never die, so death itself is "destroyed". The word pictures in Rev symbolize this.
I hope that you were sincere asking these questions, and not just throwing out objections that you hope will cause difficulties for the doctrine of Conditional Immortality.
God bless,
Tim
Thanks for asking.
First of all I believe the soul can die. As you pointed out Jesus said body and soul can be destroyed in Gehenna. Also Ezekiel 18 says that the soul who sins shall die.
2nd you asked how a soul that is destroyed can be punished. According to the Bible, destruction IS the punishment.
3rd. You asked about the worms. That verse doesn't say the dead souls are conscious of torment for all eternity. Read Isaiah 66. It says that the worms are consuming dead bodies, not living dead souls.
Lastly, you asked how people can die the 2nd death when death itself is thrown into the lake of fire. Rev isn't meant to be taken literally. But the truth is represented by the symbols in Revelation. After the wicked die the second death because the wages of sin is death, then death will no longer be necessary. Everyone who is left will never die, so death itself is "destroyed". The word pictures in Rev symbolize this.
I hope that you were sincere asking these questions, and not just throwing out objections that you hope will cause difficulties for the doctrine of Conditional Immortality.
God bless,
Tim
Aimiel
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Scroll up. :duh:
God's Truth
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Thanks for answering Tim.
I was not throwing out objections, but showing you scripture that may go against your beliefs.
Tell me, if the worm never dies then how is it that they die?
All will be raised at the resurrection, the wicked are also raised, will they not also have immortal bodies?
John 5:29 and come out--those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
As for Revelation, not all is just symbolic.
God's Truth
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Tim,
Can you explain another scripture? Tell me why the fire is eternal if the people in it are long gone?
Matthew 25:40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Can you explain another scripture? Tell me why the fire is eternal if the people in it are long gone?
Matthew 25:40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
It plainly says the fire is eternal right? It plainly does not say those who are consumed by the fire are eternal. Is this magic fie that doesn't burn up what is put into it? Where is that written? You can throw objections all day long. How about accepting what the Bible says? Romans 6:23
Did you read Isaiah 66? The last verse? The worm is not the person, the worm is what EATS the person. And not the living person either, the worm eats the corpse, the dead body.
No. The Bible does not say that the wicked are raised with immortal bodies. The wicked are raised for judgment and then are condemned for their wickedness. They pay the penalty for their sin which is destruction, the second death.
That's correct, and the result of the condemnation is the second death. Death. Eternal Destruction, which actually is destruction.
That's the trick, isn't it? Which parts of Rev are symbolic and which are not? Is it wise to take a passage which may or may not be symbolic, and use that passage to rewrite the rest of scripture? Or should we use the clear passages to interpret the unclear passages? The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. Do we look into a Book that we know is full of symbolism and decide that the wages of sin is not death? Come on, be serious.
GT, I don't know if you are asking questions because you want answers or if you are asking questions because you are trying to tell me something.
I'll ask you a question that the other guys won't answer, and I would like a one word answer, if possible. According to Romans 6:23, what is the wages of sin?
(Here's a hint: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23
I'll ask you a question that the other guys won't answer, and I would like a one word answer, if possible. According to Romans 6:23, what is the wages of sin?
(Here's a hint: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23
God's Truth
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You still have not answered the question, why is the fire never ending but the life in the fire is already gone according to you.
I accept all scripture. Tell me, what do you think that Romans 6:23 is saying that I am not accepting? Are you just trying to be rude, or are you trying to discuss some scriptures deeply out of love?
God's Truth
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Tell me, why would you think that I have not read Isaiah 66? Why would you ever think that I did not know the worm is not the person? Stop being rude please. You have not answered how and why the worm would not ever die but a person after the resurrection could die. Not only that, please explain how their worm is not dying if their flesh has been destroyed a long time ago in the fire?
The Bible says we will be raised imperishable. See 1 Corinthians 15:42.
Again, how are they going to die in an imperishable body?
Again, how is it they have a worm that does not die if the body is long gone?
Our spirits live on after the death of the body. Just because our spirits live on, that does not mean we did not die physically.
I'm not trying to be rude. We know that the wages of sin is death, because the Bible says "the wages of sin is death". Since the wages of sin is death, we know that the wages of sin is not something other than death. It is not a car, a house, or eternal conscious torment in hell. The wages of sin is death. The penalty for sin is death.
I guess I don't understand your point about the eternal fire. If I had a one-hour fire, and I put a piece of paper in it, the paper would be consumed by the fire in about 10 seconds. The fire would go out in an hour. If I was camping, and had a fire going all week, that would be a week-long-fire. If I put a piece of paper into the fire, it would be consumed in about 10 seconds. The fire would be put out at the end of the week. If I had a one year fire, same thing.
If I had an eternal fire, and I put a piece of paper in it, the paper would be consumed in about 10 seconds. The fire would continue to burn forever. If a person was thrown into the eternal fire, they would be consumed by the fire, it may take an hour or a day, but eventually they would be consumed by the fire. They would be gone, burnt to ashes, but the fire would still be burning. I don't see a problem here. Do you still see a problem? Can you explain what you think the problem is? Do you simply want to disagree with me no matter what?
God's Truth
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Yes.
The wages of sin is death, we all die physically, but we have spirits that live on after the death of the body.
Through one man came death, and the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
So then, how do the unsaved die if death is destroyed?
God's Truth
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Why is there a fire prepared for Satan and the angels that will burn forever? If the fire was made just for putting in Satan, his angels, and the wicked, then why would the fire go on eternally if the objects and reason for the fire is gone?
How is it that their worm did not die in the fire but the people did die?
In your analogy of the fire and the paper…you said the paper burned then the fire eventually went out. HOWEVER, the fire Jesus speaks of is ETERNAL.