Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Aimiel]

I am not ignoring truth. I believe the bible and you have not presented any evidence to back up your claim of ECT.

I'm not either; but you have yet to present any evidence to prove that ECT is not real. Scripture says it is, so any evidence would be extra-Biblical, by the way.

The lake of fire is the second death, not eternal conscious torment. You are ignoring that, and that is what the Bible says.

No, I don't ignore the fact that eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire for ever and ever is in Scripture... but you do. It is called: "the second death," but it is also described as eternal punishment, not eradication or annihilation.

Your eyes are closed, not mine. If you can't see that it is because your eyes are closed. The Bible clearly says that the wages of sin is death, the Bible doesn't say that the wages of sin is ECT. If you can't see that it is because your eyes are closed, and your ears.

My mind is open, as are my eyes and ears. I'm always ready to learn. Wish I could say the same for you. You reject reason and logic, as well as clear Scriptures.

 

[Aimiel]

Okay Aimiel. It's time to put up or shut up.
You show me the verse that says that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be in eternal conscious torment forever. You can't use the lake of fire, because John already told us in Revelation 20:14 that the lake of fire is the second DEATH. If Scripture clearly indicates this, as you claim, you should have no problem producing a verse that backs up your claim.

My claim is that the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23.

Most Christian doctrine isn't built upon a single Scripture, as your strawman so vicariously proves. We weigh one Scripture upon another, building doctrine line-upon-line, precept upon precept. Without understanding, you will never see The Lord.

 

[godrulz]

I used this tool to try to find out if the Bible ever says "death means separation" or "death is separation".
http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=death+means+separation&c=&t=niv&ps=10&s=Bibles
No results were found for 'death means separation' or 'death is separation' under the Bibles category. I can't find any biblical evidence for "biblical death means separation". The truth is that Biblical death means "not alive" just as death has always meant. Jesus is able to take people who are not alive and make them alive again. I'm speaking literally, not metaphorically.

The cliche' "Biblical death is not really death, but rather a separation" is ALWAYS asserted, but NEVER proven. I've seen this claim many times, and I have never once seen any proof given for it.

Principle, not proof text. She gave you many verses that use death in contexts of being alive/aware. To make sense of all the relevant evidence, physical, spiritual, eternal death is consistent with separation concepts and inconsistent with cessation concepts.

 

[godrulz]

John the Baptist didn't believe in eternal punishment

Matthew 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Being first century Jew, yes he did.

The doctrine of last things is based on all the cumulative evidence, not this verse that is illustrative and not primarily about hell.

 

[godrulz]

Really.

Matthew 25:46 says eternal PUNISHMENT, not eternal TORMENT.

The wicked will be destroyed, just as he said in Matthew 7:19 and 13:36-40.

Punishment can be temporal or eternal. It is sheer loop hole rationalization to say it is only for a limited time and then ceases.

Grammatically, if punishment (not just its effects) is not forever (and ever day and night tormented...does not fit your view), then life in heaven is not forever either!

The evidence is out there. Your arguments are circular/begging the question, subject to your pet definitions, etc. Your view is not the biblical, historical, orthodox view. You reject the light we give, so this truly is becoming a waste of time with an arrogant, hard-headed person with a hobby horse doctrine that gives false assurance to the careless unregenerate.

 

[Timotheos]

I'm not either; but you have yet to present any evidence to prove that ECT is not real. Scripture says it is, so any evidence would be extra-Biblical, by the way.No, I don't ignore the fact that eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire for ever and ever is in Scripture... but you do. It is called: "the second death," but it is also described as eternal punishment, not eradication or annihilation.My mind is open, as are my eyes and ears. I'm always ready to learn. Wish I could say the same for you. You reject reason and logic, as well as clear Scriptures.

You claim that scripture says ECT is real, but you haven't given any scripture that says ECT is real. God told Adam that he would die and return to dust as a result of his sin, and Adam did. The wages of sin is death. Ezekiel 18:4 says that "the soul who sins shall die". Isaiah 66:16 speaks of the coming judgment and says "those slain by the lord will be many. Psalm 37:20 says that the wicked will perish. Psalm 37:10 says that the wicked will be no more. Joel speaks of the day of judgment and says in Joel 1:15 "Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is near, and as destruction from the Almighty it comes. Malachi 4 says that the wicked will be like stubble in a field that is burned away and the wicked will be like ashes. John the Baptist said that the wicked will be like chaff that is completely burned up. Matthew 3:12. Jesus said that many will be destroyed, the road to destruction is wide. Matthew 7:13, Jesus said the false prophets are like trees that bear bad fruit, they will be cut down and burned. Matthew 7:19. John 3:16 says that whoever believes in the Son of God will not perish but will have eternal life. Therefore, who doesn't believe will perish and will not have eternal life. Paul said that death came through sin, Romans 5:12. Paul said that the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. He also said that those who do not obey the gospel will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, 2 Thessalonians 1:9. Hebrews 10:27 says that the judgment fire consumes the adversaries. James says that "sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." James 1:15. Peter refers to the judgment as "swift destruction", 2 Peter 2:1. Peter says that Sodom and Gomorrah were "condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6. Jude 7 concurs. John said "God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 John 5:11-12.
And the book of Revelation specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal conscious torment.

I don't see how you can claim that I reject clear scriptures. I agree with the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, and the scriptures back up what I say. You claim that you are always ready to learn, yet you reject all of these clear scriptures. You haven't shown me one verse that I disagree with, yet you lie and say that I reject scripture. I've shown you 20 clear scripture passages that prove ECT is not true, please read them and do not reject the scriptures.

I do not reject the scriptures, or reason and logic. You haven't presented any scripture, reason or logic that says the wicked will go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever when they are dead.

 

[Timotheos]

Punishment can be temporal or eternal. It is sheer loop hole rationalization to say it is only for a limited time and then ceases.

I don't say that. I say that the punishment of death lasts forever for the unrepentant. It doesn't last for only a limited time. I can see that you don't understand that the punishment of death is eternal. That must be why you don't accept the truth.

Grammatically, if punishment (not just its effects) is not forever (and ever day and night tormented...does not fit your view), then life in heaven is not forever either!

I'm saying that the punishment does last forever, so your argument doesn't work. I've told you this before and your argument didn't work before. Why repeat an argument that has already been refuted? Try it again, maybe the third time is the charm!

The evidence is out there. Your arguments are circular/begging the question, subject to your pet definitions, etc. Your view is not the biblical, historical, orthodox view. You reject the light we give, so this truly is becoming a waste of time with an arrogant, hard-headed person with a hobby horse doctrine that gives false assurance to the careless unregenerate.

Baloney. How are my arguments circular? I've shown from scripture that the penalty for sin is destruction. I'm not begging the question in any way. I don't have pet definitions, I use the regular definitions of the words in the Bible, both in Greek and English. But you certainly have your pet definitions. You claim "death doesn't really mean death, but a separation". What is that, except your own pet definition of death? I don't reject the light you give, you give no light, except the same thing the serpent said in the garden. "surely you will not die". I assure you, the wages of sin is death, and the unrepentant will die and will be no more, just as the bible says. You claim that I am am hard headed and arrogant just because I won't knuckle under and believe what you say without any proof. I'm hard headed and arrogant for believing what the Bible says instead of what YOU say? That seems a little arrogant of you. I reject how you call the truth of scripture a "hobby horse doctrine." And just how is it "giving false assurance to the careless unregenerate" to tell them that if they don't repent they will be destroyed? Your logic is sloppy. Destruction is not "assurance". I don't say "There, there, don't worry, everything will be okay, you will be destroyed." You don't know what you are talking about. You reject clear scripture, reason and logic.

 

[Timotheos]

Aimiel and Godrulz,
Rather than disagree with me when I say that the results of sin is destruction, why don't you go to the source and disagree with the person who told me this?

"“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Please tell Jesus that He is wrong. Tell the creator of the universe that the easy way doesn't lead to destruction, but rather a "separation". Tell the Master God that He is wrong and all ways lead to life and contrary to what He says, everyone will live forever somewhere.

Tell Jesus that He was wrong and the serpent was right when he said "Surely you will not die". Choose this day who you will follow but as for me, I will follow the Lord and not the liar devil, the serpent.

 

[Aimiel]

You claim that scripture says ECT is real, but you haven't given any scripture that says ECT is real.

You claim you believe what The Bible says. I see that you do believe PARTS of The Bible. I believe all of It. Even the parts that show that ECT is the fate of men.

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus wasn't joking around. He was telling a parable, to show what it would be like on Judgment Day.

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The angel wasn't talking about demons only, he referred to men. Men will have the same fate as Satan: ECT.

 

[Timotheos]

You claim you believe what The Bible says. I see that you do believe PARTS of The Bible. I believe all of It. Even the parts that show that ECT is the fate of men.

You claim that you believe all of it, yet you reject all of the scriptures I posted in favor of your interpretation of ONE passage in the symbolic book of Revelation. Do I need to tell you ONCE AGAIN (just to have you ignore me, AGAIN) that everlasting punishment is NOT the same thing as everlasting torment??? You and I AGREE that there will be eternal punishment. We just disagree on the form it takes. You say the punishment will be ECT, even though you can't produce even one verse in the whole bible that says this, while I believe the punishment is eternal destruction, because of ALL of the MANY verses I've shown you that say this. Could you address the verses I've given you and at least tell me WHY you reject them?

 

[Timotheos]

Aimiel, once again. Disagree with Jesus Christ rather than me. He said the road is wide that leads to destruction. I merely believe Him. Go ahead and tell HIM that HE is wrong and you are right. Let me know how that works out for you. If it turns out that you are right and Jesus is wrong, and If YOU are willing to die to pay the penalty for my sins, and If you are truly able to raise the dead as HE does, then I will go ahead and worship you. Until you can do what HE CAN DO, I will not worship you, thank you very much.

 

[Timotheos]

God told Adam that he would die and return to dust as a result of his sin, and Adam did. The wages of sin is death. Ezekiel 18:4 says that "the soul who sins shall die". Isaiah 66:16 speaks of the coming judgment and says "those slain by the lord will be many. Psalm 37:20 says that the wicked will perish. Psalm 37:10 says that the wicked will be no more. Joel speaks of the day of judgment and says in Joel 1:15 "Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is near, and as destruction from the Almighty it comes. Malachi 4 says that the wicked will be like stubble in a field that is burned away and the wicked will be like ashes. John the Baptist said that the wicked will be like chaff that is completely burned up. Matthew 3:12. Jesus said that many will be destroyed, the road to destruction is wide. Matthew 7:13, Jesus said the false prophets are like trees that bear bad fruit, they will be cut down and burned. Matthew 7:19. John 3:16 says that whoever believes in the Son of God will not perish but will have eternal life. Therefore, who doesn't believe will perish and will not have eternal life. Paul said that death came through sin, Romans 5:12. Paul said that the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. He also said that those who do not obey the gospel will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, 2 Thessalonians 1:9. Hebrews 10:27 says that the judgment fire consumes the adversaries. James says that "sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." James 1:15. Peter refers to the judgment as "swift destruction", 2 Peter 2:1. Peter says that Sodom and Gomorrah were "condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6. Jude 7 concurs. John said "God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 John 5:11-12.
And the book of Revelation specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal conscious torment.

I believe all of It.

You claim you believe all of it. So why don't you believe it?
You don't believe that Adam died because of sin.
You don't believe that the soul who sins shall die.
You don't believe that any will be slain by the Lord.
You don't believe that the wicked will perish.
You don't believe the wicked will be no more. You believe they will continue in hell.
You don't believe that destruction comes from the Almighty God.
You don't believe that the wicked will be burnt to ashes.
You don't believe that the wicked will be burnt up like chaff.
You don't believe that the wide road leads to destruction.
You don't believe Jesus, John, Paul, James, Jude or Peter.

You only believe yourself and your own interpretation of one verse in Revelation.

 

[Aimiel]

:blabla:

Why do you always ignore the Biblical proofs of ECT? :duh:

 

[Aimiel]

You claim that scripture says ECT is real, but you haven't given any scripture that says ECT is real.

You claim you believe what The Bible says. I see that you do believe PARTS of The Bible. I believe all of It. Even the parts that show that ECT is the fate of men.

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus wasn't joking around. He was telling a parable, to show what it would be like on Judgment Day.

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The angel wasn't talking about demons only, he referred to men. Men will have the same fate as Satan: ECT.

 

[Timotheos]

Why do you always ignore the Biblical proofs of ECT? :duh:

Because there are no Biblical proofs of ECT. :duh: yourself.

Why do you call all of the Bible "Blah Blah Blah"?
:duh: yourself.

You don't believe the Bible, you call it blahblahblah.

I suggest you read and try to understand the scripture I posted instead of just ignoring it. :duh:

Rather than disagree with me when I say that the results of sin is destruction, why don't you go to the source and disagree with the person who told me this?

"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Please tell Jesus that He is wrong. Tell the creator of the universe that the easy way doesn't lead to destruction, but rather a "separation". Tell the Master God that He is wrong and all ways lead to life and contrary to what He says, everyone will live forever somewhere.

Tell Jesus that He was wrong and the serpent was right when he said "Surely you will not die". Choose this day who you will follow but as for me, I will follow the Lord and not the liar devil, the serpent.
Aimiel, I can see that you made your choice, and you agree with the serpent. You can tell Jesus that He is wrong on Judgment Day. Tell Him :duh:, not me.

 

[Timotheos]

You clai...

(DELETED REPEATED RANT WHICH WAS ALREADY REFUTED)

...the same fate as Satan: ECT.

You aren't even listening. You are incapable of understanding the truth because you refuse to investigate.

 

[Aimiel]

I have investigated... The Lord was speaking of eternal destruction, which is torment in flames, for ever and ever, which you choose to ignore.

 

[Timotheos]

I have investigated... The Lord was speaking of eternal destruction, which is torment in flames, for ever and ever, which you choose to ignore.

How can eternal DESTRUCTION possibly be torment in flames? Do you even know what Destruction is?
Destruction is defined as the tearing down or dismantling or killing of something.
An example of destruction is the effect of a bomb on a target.
An example of destruction is many deaths resulting from a highly-infectious illness.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/destruction

I don't ignore that destruction means "never destroyed but eternally tormented in flames". I disagree that destruction means "not ever destroyed". You would too, if you weren't stubbornly trying to defend a doctrine that is biblically unsound.

Destruction doesn't mean "torment in flames"

 

[Aimiel]

I agree that destruction has different meanings, not the least of which is what happens to those sentenced to the Lake of Fire to be tormented for ever and ever. Their punishment will be eternal.

 

[Timotheos]

I agree that destruction has different meanings, not the least of which is what happens to those sentenced to the Lake of Fire to be tormented for ever and ever. Their punishment will be eternal.

There is one thing that "Destruction" CAN'T mean. It can't mean "Never destroyed for all eternity". We know that the penalty is destruction, because of 2 Thess 1:9. We know that the wages of sin is death because of Romans 6:23. We know that it is the fate of the wicked to perish and be no more because of Psalm 37:10 and 20. Among many other verses. AND WE KNOW THAT THE LAKE OF FIRE IS THE SECOND DEATH because of Revelation 20:14 which says "The lake of fire is the second death".

So, there is no reason to try to make "destruction" mean "never destroyed, but tormented forever in the lake of fire instead of being ever destroyed."