Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[ok doser]

well played :first:

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

"in no way can unbelievers be considered to be the source of kindness in their niceness"

i understand that, and i also understand why those outside the body don't and can't

and so, there will be eternal ( ) misunderstanding with the likes of artie

which is why i don't usually bother delving this deeply into these matters

I understand. The reason I delve deeply into these matters is for the edification of Believers, most of whom generally have a spiritually intuitive sense of all I say, but would have trouble expressing it cogently according to applied lexicography.

So my posts may be in direct response to scoffers and mockers (and may be for their benefit or to their detriment), but are more for the faithful who are also responding on these topics.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Which is exactly what you accuse God of.

Annihilation? non-existence?

I wouldn't ever which such on my worst enemy.

You believe that "hell" is an existence of unending, absolute loneliness with no company, no comforts and no respite from that, right?

You think that's better than just not existing? That it's less cruel? I don't hold with annihilation but to argue that your version of "hell" isn't cruel is bemusing beyond words.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

You believe that "hell" is an existence of unending, absolute loneliness with no company, no comforts and no respite from that, right?

You think that's better than just not existing? That it's less cruel? I don't hold with annihilation but to argue that your version of "hell" isn't cruel is bemusing beyond words.

Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, so no one is actually speaking of hell. They’re speaking of the lake of fire. (Just a clarification.)

And if you’ve read my posts on the lake of fire over the last few pages (depending on one’s settings), then you should understand at least the basics of what the lake of fire both is AND isn’t; but your posts aren’t reflecting that, unfortunately.

 

[Arthur Brain]

to return to our discussion from last night (and i'll have to be brief here) - it appears to me that the kindness artie has received from non-believers is (or can be) the true kindness which you were describing, the kindness that comes from God, but only if God was working through them

and of course, artie's perception of that quality is comprised by his own rejection of God

so artie isn't wrong in his perception of the quality of the kindness offered and received

Not interested in having another merry go round with you this evening but just what you think my "perception of anything is comprised of" is just the usual trolling nonsense. I suggest that you get a new hobby besides obsessing and gossiping about other posters and inventing up misrepresentations and lies about them.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You believe that "hell" is an existence of unending, absolute loneliness with no company, no comforts and no respite from that, right?

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” - John 3:3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John3:3&version=NKJV

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:11-15&version=NKJV

You think that's better than just not existing? That it's less cruel? I don't hold with annihilation but to argue that your version of "hell" isn't cruel is bemusing beyond words.

It's not possible to destroy that which was designed to last forever.

In other words, your arguing a false premise to begin with.

Casting them away is the ONLY option. If it hadn't been, Christ wouldn't have gone to die on the cross.

By claiming that God could "bring them around eventually", you not only minimize His accomplishment on the cross, but you spit in His face and call Him a liar, because you think you know better than God.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Arthur Brain]

Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, so no one is actually speaking of hell. They’re speaking of the lake of fire. (Just a clarification.)

And if you’ve read my posts on the lake of fire over the last few pages (depending on one’s settings), then you should understand at least the basics of what the lake of fire both is AND isn’t; but your posts aren’t reflecting that, unfortunately.

That's one reason why I put "hell" in inverted commas, for the sake of simplicity more than anything. I've read your posts and effectively and in layman's terms the lake of fire seems to be a condition where the "unsaved" exist in a perpetual state where they can't be reconciled to God or purified to the point where they could be and somehow this is still part of God's mercy towards them. I'm not obliged to agree with it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Not interested in having another merry go round with you

Then get out of this thread. Bye!

:wave2:



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[ok doser]

I'm not obliged to agree with it.

i'd be astonished if you did

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

That's one reason why I put "hell" in inverted commas, for the sake of simplicity more than anything.

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.

I've read your posts and effectively and in layman's terms the lake of fire seems to be a condition where the "unsaved" exist in a perpetual state where they can't be reconciled to God or purified to the point where they could be and somehow this is still part of God's mercy towards them.

That’s a decent general summary. Thanks for distilling that in your own terms.

I'm not obliged to agree with it.

No, you’re not.

 

[FineLinen]

That's one reason why I put "hell" in inverted commas, for the sake of simplicity more than anything. I've read your posts and effectively and in layman's terms the lake of fire seems to be a condition where the "unsaved" exist in a perpetual state where they can't be reconciled to God or purified to the point where they could be and somehow this is still part of God's mercy towards them. I'm not obliged to agree with it.

Nor should you A.B. The fact is the end is the beginning! Our God is the Source, Guide & Goal of the all, the ta panta.

The Lake of Fire has one major ingredient: theion rooted in Theos. Perhaps one of these noble rascals can tell F.L., and all of us, what differentiates between our God the consuming fire and the Lake of all lakes radiating with theion and theioo.

 

[glorydaz]

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.



That’s a decent general summary. Thanks for distilling that in your own terms.



No, you’re not.

Unfortunately AB has been booted from the thread for not wanting to address doser. I was enjoying AB's input and your answers, but alas.....

 

[glorydaz]

Then get out of this thread. Bye!

:wave2:



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

For not wanting to address doser's trolling?

Seriously?

Have you been reading what doser has been saying about AB?

Or does it not matter?

Enquiring minds want to know.....

 

[glorydaz]

Nor should you A.B. The fact is the end is the beginning! Our God is the Source, Guide & Goal of the all, the ta panta.

The Lake of Fire has one major ingredient: theion rooted in Theos. Perhaps one of these noble rascals can tell F.L., and all of us, what differentiates between our God the consuming fire and the Lake of all lakes radiating with theion and theioo.

Worth discussing.

 

[glorydaz]

This is no contradiction of Gen. 5:3. Instead, it indicates man originally being made in the Imago Dei. That image is still latent in all men, but is not functional according to divine order. It’s suppressed, with the image of Adam having taken preeminence in functionality. It doesn’t mean the Imago Dei is eradication and doesn’t exist; it means it is dysfunctionalized by evil and sin, needing a means of resurrection for functionality.

It's this first part I have a problem with. We are no different than Adam was when he was created in that he sinned exactly like we do. So, God created Adam with the same "dysfunction" as we have....the ability to sin.

 

[glorydaz]

Written by then-backslidden Saul, well on his descent into madness. Which means taking what he says with a grain of salt.



What is clear is your lack of understanding of scripture, and your attempts to twist said scripture to fit your beliefs.



Was the girl in Matthew 9:24 asleep or dead, Oatsy?

Oatsy? Isn't that name shaming or something? :think:

And it wasn't Saul in his "descent into madness" that wrote Ecclesiastes. JFYI

 

[JudgeRightly]

Oatsy? Isn't that name shaming or something? :think:

And it wasn't Saul in his "descent into madness" that wrote Ecclesiastes. JFYI

Ah! You're right, king Solomon, not Saul. Thank you for the correction!

 

[way 2 go]

If you read the verses I posted you would realize that the dead are incapable of any thought, or consciousness, let alone any action.

the physically dead know nothing about what is going on here on earth

Thus the dead burying their dead is figurative, not literal.
Yet we can also look at it as "let the spiritually dead bury the spiritually dead" Why follow the spiritually dead when you can follow the lord Jesus Christ to life eternal?

spiritually dead burying the physically dead

KC Pillai explains it as let the city bury their dead.

kc is wrong

Even so, with Ephesians 2:1 man of body and soul only is spiritually dead, thus when they receive the gift of pneuma hagion they receive spiritual life thus and then becoming the complete believing human of I Thessalonians 5:23

so you understand spiritually dead

The dead are dead until they are resurrected, they are resurrected to life, whether it be the first or second resurrection.

no
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

and no
2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Those in the first resurrection, of the just, the second death shall have no power over them for they were resurrected to eternal life,

Whiles those unjust resurrected in the second resurrection were resurrected to live only to their second death.

the second death says "tormented day and night forever and ever."

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

God refers to those were dead but resurrected as the dead, for so they were.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God

they are spiritually dead

 

[ok doser]

I understand. The reason I delve deeply into these matters is for the edification of Believers, most of whom generally have a spiritually intuitive sense of all I say, but would have trouble expressing it cogently according to applied lexicography.

"generally have a spiritually intuitive sense of all I say, but would have trouble expressing it cogently"

that's me! :wave2:


thank you for taking the time to go through this

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

"generally have a spiritually intuitive sense of all I say, but would have trouble expressing it cogently"

that's me! :wave2:

thank you for taking the time to go through this

This has become my predominant posture in discussing theological issues. I find that most already “know” what I’m saying to whatever extent, but my lexical explications help clarify everything in a cogent and concise espression that often eludes those who aren’t linguists, etc.

It often eliminates false dichotomies and binaries, while providing an understanding of how and why more ancient views of doctrines are subtly different than their modern divergent equivalents (particularly the whys, hopefully).

I find it’s far more valuable and helpful than debating, even though my posts also have to take that format with those who are farthest from the truth.

The key to this is recognizing that all who are resurrected as new creatures in Christ have been given life (zoe) that is the capacity to have constant communion with God. And the knowledge (oida) that comes from this is NOT acquistion, but access. So this spiritually intuitive knowledge doesn’t require extensive experience, but is immediately available and increases qualitatively with the communion inherent in this resurrection (which is the foreshadowing of the bodily resurrection in the final day).

The greatest joy in this is seeing how lovers of truth and lovers of God readily recognize the truth when it’s delineated (even if it’s somewhat different than they’ve previously presumed or understood). Such is the edification of the Word as God administers His grace.

Thank you for your kind words.