Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
That woman who had visions of going to hell with Jesus and seeing the sufferings of people who supposedly were asking Jesus to save them, is just lying visions, and much of the churches swallowed it hook line and sinker.
LA
StanJ53
New member
I'm not 100% on what you are implying here. Are you advocating that being sanctified is the same as being saved? Please read v16.
This sounds like a RCC doctrine to me. Children are judged on their own merit, and if they have NOT reached the age of accountability before they die, then they will NOT be judged on what they do NOT know.
Also please note what Paul says in v12.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
busting 'hell'........
busting 'hell'........
The mind can draw up many of its own imaginations influenced by various sources, but some dreams and visions can be divinely impressed. I imagine you speak of Mary Baxters book, she had one on 'heaven' too. In the greater realms of Spirit...there are various degrees and spheres of more 'heaven' or 'hell-like' states, - souls go to those spheres that correlate to their own soul's development or vibration. Remember,....there is no existence or condition of existence outside of consciousness. - in consciousness there are infinite worlds without end, of endless variation,...all things are possible.
Kevin Williams at near-death.com does a good review of her experience and concludes it was not a NDE (dear death experience), see for yourself here. Otherwise, Kevins website is the best for NDE and Afterlife studies online
- I highly recommend it. My former 'NDE and Afterlife' thread was deleted, but may begin a new one soon.
In-joy!
pj
busting 'hell'........
The mind can draw up many of its own imaginations influenced by various sources, but some dreams and visions can be divinely impressed. I imagine you speak of Mary Baxters book, she had one on 'heaven' too. In the greater realms of Spirit...there are various degrees and spheres of more 'heaven' or 'hell-like' states, - souls go to those spheres that correlate to their own soul's development or vibration. Remember,....there is no existence or condition of existence outside of consciousness. - in consciousness there are infinite worlds without end, of endless variation,...all things are possible.
Kevin Williams at near-death.com does a good review of her experience and concludes it was not a NDE (dear death experience), see for yourself here. Otherwise, Kevins website is the best for NDE and Afterlife studies online
- I highly recommend it. My former 'NDE and Afterlife' thread was deleted, but may begin a new one soon.In-joy!
pj
Zeke
Well-known member
Yea the cure for any soul begins with love, and not a threat of punishment which only widens the gap between reconciliation.
The collective rule of fear the church once enjoyed is coming to an end.
Blessings, Zeke.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
divine goodness.........
divine goodness.........
Yes, the purveyors of eternal punishment when seeing the abject horror or their assumption of God and terrible theologies, soon dispense with such dogmas to their soul's relief, and at last fall into the bosom of a most good and wise Creator, whose justice and mercy are perfectly mediated with respect to the good and welfare of all souls.
pj
divine goodness.........
Yes, the purveyors of eternal punishment when seeing the abject horror or their assumption of God and terrible theologies, soon dispense with such dogmas to their soul's relief, and at last fall into the bosom of a most good and wise Creator, whose justice and mercy are perfectly mediated with respect to the good and welfare of all souls.
pj
What is the age of accountability and when is it?
Is a child going to Heaven until a certain age then they are going to hell?
These things are only inventions of man to get all children who die young into Heaven. It is plain humanism.
LA
What does the word Soul mean anyway? Ψσυχε means literally breath english, and yet it is translated as soul in english.
Sentimental vs Scriptural arguments?
Nephesh is the hebrew cognate of the greek word Psuche.
Soul has a range of meaning. Our understanding of what Scripture teaches about 'soul' (varies with context; JWs are wrong to assume only one meaning) affects our understanding of sin, salvation, destiny, purpose, abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, etc.
It doesn't have those qualities in the NT. It does in hellenistic writing where the human breath contained the human intelligence. Why do translators want to mislead on such a trivial issue?
Aimiel
Well-known member
If we could 'rationalize' or reason and reach God that way, He'd never have bothered inspiring His Word through the holy prophets. His Word Alone is the way to restore what was lost in the garden of Eden: relationship. People think that they can 'outhink' God and end up worshiping an idol of their own imagination, rather than coming into a relationship with Him by believing that He doesn't lie and simply trusting in His Word. Through relationship with God we can come just as close to Him as we are willing to strive for. He doesn't limit us, we limit ourselves. One thing we should do is pray that He would increase our hunger for Him.
StanJ53
New member
Children are blessed and important to Jesus.
Children are blessed and important to Jesus.
The age of accountability is known by God. That's all that counts. As a parent it was my job to ensure my kids were raised up in the way they should live and they accepted Jesus when they became aware of who He was.
Jesus spoke of NOT keeping children from Him and how we need to be like children in order to come into the kingdom. Adults seem very loath to accept Jesus as their Savior.
You sound like you're very anti RCC. This belief is NOT just prat of the RCC doctrines, it is evident in the Bible.
BTW, how about answering my questions?
Children are blessed and important to Jesus.
The age of accountability is known by God. That's all that counts. As a parent it was my job to ensure my kids were raised up in the way they should live and they accepted Jesus when they became aware of who He was.
Jesus spoke of NOT keeping children from Him and how we need to be like children in order to come into the kingdom. Adults seem very loath to accept Jesus as their Savior.
You sound like you're very anti RCC. This belief is NOT just prat of the RCC doctrines, it is evident in the Bible.
BTW, how about answering my questions?
StanJ53
New member
Actually its the doctrine of annihilation that teaches freedom from accountability - atheists already believe they are nothing but worm food after death so hey do what they want and answer to no one.
You give them what they want - teaching that there is no punishment and no accountability. They will just cease to exist. And under that scenerio, hey why not just please the flesh all you want.
Your False witness is noted. No reason for me to listen to anything else you have to say.
Jesus said before He spoke to them, they had no sin. One is not accountable for sin unless they know what it is.
I suppose you believe that the mentally diseased suffer hell, unless their parents were saved too. You ignore that we are accountable for ourselves.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
misrepresenting God
misrepresenting God
No, I'm proposing the principles of reason, justice, mercy, spiritual intelligence, common sense. You're 'terms' above are falsely applied here, since my essential points shared previously stand on their 'principles'. To call these principles 'sentimental' and dismiss them for your literal dogmatic interpretation is feeble, since you still cannot explain or justify how 'God' could inflict and sustain eternal punishment with no resolve, end or purpose...which violates the very precepts of justice, love or wisdom, relative to his divine will, which is in essence eternally good, beneficent and ever merciful.
Any sentient being looking at your interpretation of the concerned passage or concept itself, would find such most unjust. An eternity of punishments upon souls, being kept tormented alive forever and ever TO NO END is insane.
All written previously stands against the doctrine of ECT as primitive, backward and furthermore against the very will of God. It is an atrocity....and a retardation of correct theology, a misrepresentation of 'Real God', a twisted caricature of Deity.
Just on a philosophical level, Spritism as codified by Alan Kardec presents a more reasonable theology of sin, duration of punishments for sin, which is merely a transgression of natural and spiritual laws, and the corrective aspect of suffering which furthers a soul along the path of life, by the law of progress. Therefore souls in this understanding only suffer in proportion to their sins, and in equal measure, - they are not punished by an wrathful God for all eternity, for temporal sins, and are quite able thru such suffering to learn thereby, and expiate their sins, making reparation for such...and getting back into harmony with God and his laws (does God's will ever change in relation to his children?).
From another perspective, the concept of 'soul-death', assuming souls can truly 'die' (become extinct, disintegrated, destroyed)...is a more merciful provision than ECT, but here one must learn further the metaphysics behind soul-death, which extend beyond ordinary assumptions which are explained better in works like the Urantia Papers.
No matter what happens to souls, whether they are more or less eternal in nature (but only become 'immortal' IF they receive the 'new birth' of the Spirit and become partakers of the divine-nature), or if they can choose a final death and extinction of existence thru the whole-hearted embrace of iniquity and rejection of 'God', the laws of God govern and sustain every movement and conclusion of activity in these proceedings....with perfect justice and mercy, goodness and wisdom.
The Bible does not contain the total revelation or totality of information concerning soul-destinies, which is why other religious/spiritual writings and revelation-sources further illumine and make more replete our survey of such subjects. (A wise researcher considers all valid and pertinent sources of info. and revelation about a subject he is studying).
Sadly, you're still left with a monstrous 'god' who inflicts endless torments and eternal punishments to no end. I dont see how this makes your 'god' any more glorious, beautiful, or just....or inspires a soul to love such a 'god', let alone worship such a being.
pj
misrepresenting God
No, I'm proposing the principles of reason, justice, mercy, spiritual intelligence, common sense. You're 'terms' above are falsely applied here, since my essential points shared previously stand on their 'principles'. To call these principles 'sentimental' and dismiss them for your literal dogmatic interpretation is feeble, since you still cannot explain or justify how 'God' could inflict and sustain eternal punishment with no resolve, end or purpose...which violates the very precepts of justice, love or wisdom, relative to his divine will, which is in essence eternally good, beneficent and ever merciful.
Any sentient being looking at your interpretation of the concerned passage or concept itself, would find such most unjust. An eternity of punishments upon souls, being kept tormented alive forever and ever TO NO END is insane.
All written previously stands against the doctrine of ECT as primitive, backward and furthermore against the very will of God. It is an atrocity....and a retardation of correct theology, a misrepresentation of 'Real God', a twisted caricature of Deity.
Just on a philosophical level, Spritism as codified by Alan Kardec presents a more reasonable theology of sin, duration of punishments for sin, which is merely a transgression of natural and spiritual laws, and the corrective aspect of suffering which furthers a soul along the path of life, by the law of progress. Therefore souls in this understanding only suffer in proportion to their sins, and in equal measure, - they are not punished by an wrathful God for all eternity, for temporal sins, and are quite able thru such suffering to learn thereby, and expiate their sins, making reparation for such...and getting back into harmony with God and his laws (does God's will ever change in relation to his children?).
From another perspective, the concept of 'soul-death', assuming souls can truly 'die' (become extinct, disintegrated, destroyed)...is a more merciful provision than ECT, but here one must learn further the metaphysics behind soul-death, which extend beyond ordinary assumptions which are explained better in works like the Urantia Papers.
No matter what happens to souls, whether they are more or less eternal in nature (but only become 'immortal' IF they receive the 'new birth' of the Spirit and become partakers of the divine-nature), or if they can choose a final death and extinction of existence thru the whole-hearted embrace of iniquity and rejection of 'God', the laws of God govern and sustain every movement and conclusion of activity in these proceedings....with perfect justice and mercy, goodness and wisdom.
The Bible does not contain the total revelation or totality of information concerning soul-destinies, which is why other religious/spiritual writings and revelation-sources further illumine and make more replete our survey of such subjects. (A wise researcher considers all valid and pertinent sources of info. and revelation about a subject he is studying).
Sadly, you're still left with a monstrous 'god' who inflicts endless torments and eternal punishments to no end. I dont see how this makes your 'god' any more glorious, beautiful, or just....or inspires a soul to love such a 'god', let alone worship such a being.
pj
StanJ53
New member
No.
Punishment comes before annihilation.
No . You never read my posts properly as you also do not read the Bible correctly. You are sloopy.
Good.
So you think the wicked will not be held accountable for their sin who lived before Jesus spoke to them.
More supposings from you.
Mentally diseased people will not be saved if they do not believe in Christ and live accordingly, while mentally diseased people who do not believe in Christ will be anniahilated with little or no punishment.
Punishment always comes before destruction in the Bible (after death)
Babies of the wicked who die young will perish forever with them, but it is unlikely that they will even be raised from the dead at all.
Only the babies of the righteous will be given back to stand with their parents to be saved, but that is a judgment God has yet to make in each case.
LA