Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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KingdomRose
New member
NO. That is totally a non-biblical teaching. You get that separation of body and spirit (meaning a conscious part of you that lives on) business from pagan philosophy, straight from Plato.
God told Adam he would DIE. Satan said, "You will NOT die." (Gen.3:4) So why do we think that what Satan said is true? We obviously do die, and if we DIE, we are not alive. Duh?
"The dead are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
glorydaz
Well-known member
Indeed, all cults make the same claim. Be gone, this thread is not for you.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Ecclesiastes is God's record of man's argument. Not God's argument.
I'm not surprised you think the same, for you are of the flesh.
KingdomRose
New member
Huh? "YHWH" is found 7,000 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. How many times is "Elohim" used? And "Elohim" doesn't always refer to YHWH. It is used to refer to angels and to pagan gods.
KingdomRose
New member
You should show as much respect for the Father and the Son.
Deut.6:4 states that YHWH is one....he is not three. He is not even two.
John 10:30 states that Jesus and his Father, YHWH, are unified in thought and deed, not that they are the same Person. If John 10:30 is to be understood the way you are implying, then John 17:20-23 means that Jesus' disciples are also God, because they would be "one" with Jesus and the Father.
You handily side-step this verse, as everyone does when confronted with it. You've got nothing to say to get around it. Your flaccid interpretation of John 10:30 does not hold up, in the light of John 17:20-23.
KingdomRose
New member
No, you are on such a surface level of understanding that you can't see the truth of what Jesus was teaching. Someone said that Jesus must have been being LITERAL when he told the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, because Jesus wouldn't lie. That is such a shallow thing to say. I almost laughed!!! Of course Jesus wouldn't LIE. He was telling a parable, using metaphor! I answered the question of "would Jesus lie?" by saying---no, he didn't "lie," he was using metaphor to make a much deeper point. Just like he used illustrations like the mustard seed and the dragnet and the travelling merchant (Matt. chapter 13) to illustrate what it means to put the Kingdom first. Was he "lying" about the Kingdom being a mustard seed that grew into a tree? Please. He was telling a story likening something to another thing that wasn't actually that same thing, but people could get a picture in their minds about what the Kingdom meant. The same thing with the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. I can't believe you are so shallow-minded that you can't see what Jesus was talking about.
Your pathetic understanding is shown blatantly by your simple-minded comment about "the joke's on you." I did, in fact, say that the mustard seed does grow into a tree.
KingdomRose
New member
Apparently I am not to be included in your pathetic bunch of sadists that insist that ECT is just dandy. None of you can see what you are championing---a horrid, sadistic, blood-thirsty, maniacal and demonic affliction of beings that can never be free of it. There can be no reason for this torture and agony other than God and people like you love to see others in wretched anguish. Well, maybe YOU love it, but I know God doesn't do stuff like that. I'm glad to be gone from emotionally stunted people like you.
But maybe I'll hang around and keep reminding you of how dense and hateful you are.
You will be in for a great shock when you find your religion denies the plain meanings of scripture.
LA
What goes around, comes around.
glorydaz
Well-known member
So much anger and hate..... I know from where that comes.
It's your unbelief that I can't abide, and your scoffing at the faith of others. I know you JW's, and I know you will do whatever you can to ridicule people of faith.
I have no desire that any should perish....just like our Lord God has no desire that any should perish. If you cared about people, you would not be working so hard to make our Saviour into some lesser god and you would not be preaching against the Gospel of Grace.
You are an enemy of the Cross with your denial of the Deity of Christ. I shall call you out at every turn until you turn to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I don't have religion. I have faith, and I have LIFE and Peace.
No.
You judge from the standpoint of your religious beliefs learnt from men and not from the Lord.
You do not post to further the Kingdom of God among men, you post from Babylon to further its interests.
LA
glorydaz
Well-known member
You only say this because you don't know the Lord Jesus Christ. He was, in fact, warning you of what you would be facing if your didn't change you hard heart and turn to Him for His mercy and grace. He is the Lord your God, and you flat deny that. To make matters worse, you accuse the Lord of teaching an untruth. There was no "metaphor" there. Had there been, Jesus would have explained the meaning to the disciples. Every single one of Jesus' parables were true pictures...none went against real life events, and as in this text, a description of what we see in many other verses in scripture. You have a lot of ignoring to do to claim it was only a metaphor.
Psalm 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Isaiah 5:14-15 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Isaiah 5:14-15 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
I can tell by reading your post that you are fighting hard against the truth of the Scriptures. You do that in order to twist and pervert them...just as every single cult out there does.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Now you're not going to put a curse on me are you, LA. :chuckle:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Ooh....you lie like a dog. A sick and dying dog at that.
Do NOT add to the holy Scripture, you heathen wretch.
You do the same to John 1:1 by adding an "A" to God.
linger:
glorydaz
Well-known member
You're such a weirdo. :chuckle:
One in divine unity, the Son is ancestral to the Father, he came from the Father in eternity. But we are not all divine creators. The Life of Jesus was a revelation to man.
Cheribram was nice enough to find the scripture which validates what I said originally, the name Yahweh was adopted at Sini, so subsequent writers, editors and redactors of the Israelites history began using that name. Their were other names for God, they even believed in other Gods. But the priestly authors of the scriptures reached a point when they couldn't keep rewriting scripture and exaggerating their place in the world.
Exodus 6:3. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name Yahwah I did not make myself fully known to them.