Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Rosenritter

New member
I am trying to point out that you can't separate yourself from God -
it is nonsense to talk about it -
annihilation is the only way and God can make that happen

I think one could "metaphorically" separate themselves from God, just like you could be "separated" and live in the same house with someone. But I don't see the Bible ever speak of "separation from God" as the promised punishment of sin. There it speaks and says the wages of sin is death.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Way 2 Go, you have a reputation for being hard headed but you have stepped into the realm of fabrication now. "Already known truths?" The law and the prophets call you a liar. Your "already known truths" are the stuff of pagan mythology, not previous scripture.
Jesus repeated the truth of what Abraham said
Moses and the Prophets already preached ECT
and what the rich man experienced .



Luk 16:28**for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29**Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them.
Luk 16:30**And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.
Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.



Jesus used the figure of a Gentile hell as the story element, which does not overrule dozens of clear passages that state the dead are plainly dead and beyond consciousness.
actually Luke 16:19-31 affirms what
Moses and the Prophets and Jesus taught
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in and
a protected place with Abraham right next to the unpleasant place.

But you have been told a dozen times and you always refuse to answer in anything resembling an intelligent fashion. I am not sure why you continue, but you always do.
truth the kind Jesus taught

Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

Rosenritter you have read Moses and the Prophets
and do not believe and will not be persuaded
of the fire that awaits .


Moses and the Prophets and Jesus taught
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in for eternity
 

marke

Well-known member
Actually, I agree. Hell is the ultimate separation from everything, light, sound, thought, love, hatred, envy, consciousness, and life.

That idea is passed around a lot but there is not a good interwoven mesh of scriptural support for the assumption.
 

marhig

Well-known member
You must mean, How does one separte himself from God? In a word, "sin".

And much as leprosy, which starts off as a red rash, will soon be white as snow if not checked in time.

Yes you're right, sin separates us from God. The opposite from light is darkness, and darkness is away from God. And to carry on wilfully sinning when we know God is to turn from him, we are cast out by our own lusts. I also believe that the soul doesn't die. We have a chance now to turn from sin and deny ourselves, and Jesus has showed us the way and came as a perfect example for us to follow. If we follow the perfect cornerstone, then the building will be straight.

I thought about this the other day. When the cornerstone is laid, a bricklayer then measures every brick with a spirit level to make sure it's straight to keep the building straight. Our spirit level is the holy spirit, and he's measuring us and correcting us to be in line with our cornerstone which is Christ. If we obey him and turn from sin and keep the word of God pure then the building of God will be built perfect on perfect foundations built by the hand of God through the spirit and not by mans hand. How can we be used to build the temple if were crooked or broken? we can't. And we will be cast away. Just like being grafted into the olive tree and then cut off again if we're not continuing in goodness.

Romans 11

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

And to be cut off from God is to be in darkness, if we're in darkness we can't see. And our guide is Satan and he pulls us down, just like being in the depths of the sea on a dark night, being pulled under and we can't escape, seeing light in the distance, but we can't reach dry land. Because Satan has us in his grips.

Like taking drugs, apparently it feels great at first, but eventually it takes hold, and once addicted you're in a terrible way. The world seems wonderful with wonderful attractions but the more we are in the world, the deeper we are pulled in, and the more the fruits of the spirit disappears and are replaced by the works of the flesh again, until be are back in darkness, feeding on our own lusts. These are what we are to deny, the lusts of the flesh and turn from sin to walk in the light of God. Like you say sin is like leprosy that gets worse and worse if not dealt with.

And if we are in the depths of the sea, then Christ is our life ring, and he can save us. He can pull us out of those depths. I always think, what would Jesus do. I go back to the cornerstone to make sure I'm right. He is the only true way and the only truth, his is the only life to follow, and through going to God and repenting and turning from sin again, and praying hard to God, we can be pulled back into the light of life and away from darkness through Christ.

God's people shouldn't want anyone to go to hell, but have hope that we can bring everyone God and heaven, no matter how deep they are and how far away the seem. There is hope for everyone, even if they come to God at the very end of their lives, like the thief on the cross, with God, all things are possible.

We shouldn't judge anyone, just bring them the word of God and that will judge, and if we can't speak to them because they won't listen, then live it out in front of them, showing them the love and mercy of God through our lives and bring Christ to them. Christ in us will bring them to God, we're just the worm who dies at the end of the fishing line being cast into the depths of the sea to bring them onto dry land.

God is love, and if his love is in our hearts then we'll care for everyone and have the hope in our hearts that they will enter into heaven our job is to bring God to others and he'll do the rest. I was thinking about the tree, once we plant it, God in his time with water and light, causes the tree to grow. And I thought of how Adam and Eve used leaves to cover themselves. These leaves would have been taken from the tree, but they wouldn't have been growing on it anymore. And this is like covering ourselves in the word of God, like reading from the Bible but it's not growing within our own hearts. God will cover us if a have faith and obey him. If we try to cover ourselves, God will see our nakedness even if man can't, we can't hide our sins from God, we should repent and turn away from sin.

James 1

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death...


Once we know God, we should turn from sin to remain in the light God and not turn to darkness again, remain unspotted from the world being led by the spirit and worship God in spirit and in truth following Jesus.

1 Peter 2

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth, the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
 

Rosenritter

New member
That idea is passed around a lot but there is not a good interwoven mesh of scriptural support for the assumption.
I can support almost every one of those words that hell cuts us off from by scripture. Maybe all of them.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 KJV
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. [6] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
I think one could "metaphorically" separate themselves from God, just like you could be "separated" and live in the same house with someone. But I don't see the Bible ever speak of "separation from God" as the promised punishment of sin. There it speaks and says the wages of sin is death.

so why don't we use words as they were meant to be used?
 

Cross Reference

New member
It is simply not true that death/destruction = separation from God.

It is absolutely true. The soul of man cannot die, therefore . .

So my question remains, do you believe what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 or do you think that sinners will be tormented alive in hell?

Your question has been answered by Jesus Who declared it. Your need is to accept how it reads and not make accounts of what is perfectly clear into, parables. Surely you don't want to add to or subtract from the words of scripture, do you? So what is your problem for believing contrary to what it "says"?
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Can sin stand in His presence?? "What fellowship has light with darkness?"

sin has no existence -
it is an attribute of the sinner -
just as yellow is the color of a car -
we are all sinners and God loves us all -
the only question is -
do we love God and our neighbor?
 

Cross Reference

New member
[ Is there anywhere you can go outside of God, outside of the consciousness of God? :)

For those who have died in their sins without the promise of redemption? Yes. The abode of the "seperated from God". The eternal "dead".

David was NOT referring to Hades or Gehenna when speaking of hell where God could still be found but, of paradise, the abode of the righteous dead Jesus was refering to when giving the account of the rich man and Lazarus; where He Himself, descended to "set the captives free". Here are David's prophetic words re Jesus: "For thou wilt not leave my [eternal] soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One[/i] [dead body, as being distinct from the soul] to see corruption." Psalm 16:10 (KJV) Notice that "corruption" here is refering to the ground where everything decays which is placed into it. Three days is the usual time it takes for the process to begin. Jesus came out the 'ground' before that could begin to happen to His body.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Actually, I agree. Hell is the ultimate separation from everything, light, sound, thought, love, hatred, envy, consciousness, and life.

Not hardly. In the OT some went to a place of eternal torment while others, who died in faith, a place of paradise to await being set free that they can enter into the presence of God.
 

rstrats

Active member
Cross Reference,
re: "In the OT some went to a place of eternal torment..."

I'm not aware of any OT scripture that says that. What do you have in mind?
 

Cross Reference

New member
Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
Way 2 Go, you have a reputation for being hard headed but you have stepped into the realm of fabrication now. "Already known truths?" The law and the prophets call you a liar. . . . "

Yes. And Jesus made use of the same "law and Prophets" with the rich man in hell who asked Him to send someone to his brothers to warn them: ". . .And he [Jesus] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead". Luke 16:31 (KJV)
 
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