Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[freelight]

How is eternal punishment just?

How is eternal punishment just?

It clearly pictures conscious torment after death.

Continuing some of the same points from my previous posts,

How do you explain or justify a 'God' that enforces and condemns souls to an eternity of punishments and torments....to no end? How is such just, let alone sane? It is insane. Such is not really punishment, but a consistent and sadistic TORTURE. - I dont see how you can justify this as being the execution of a 'God' who is both 'just' and 'merciful',...because this punishment falls short of satisfying both principles. Again,...to what 'end' are these punishments producing?....since they are not corrective or beneficial to the sufferers in any way! - and to imagine 'God' Himself maintains the infliction of these torments and agony forever and ever and ever....is appalling, and violates the principles of his own standards, let alone his divine nature.

Philosopohically and morally, the assumption of the 'God' of eternal punishments is sickening.

I just added a more reasonable dissertation of the duration of punishments suffered by souls who violate the laws of God here, from a Spiritist perspective ( a collection of teachings from advanced spirits).

My former sharings on ECT have been compiled on my blog-post on ECT here.



pj

 

[Doormat]

... So what the verse there is really saying is that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are still undergoing an eternal fire as an example, remember that angels fell from heaven and this example is also for THEM to what is coming for THEM as well.

Do you believe that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are in "Hell" presently suffering punishment?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Do you believe that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are in "Hell" presently suffering punishment?

yes, just like the rich man in the story of the rich man and lazarus

 

[Doormat]

yes, just like the rich man in the story of the rich man and lazarus

Do you believe people go straight to Hell following death, or do you believe there will be a resurrection and judgment?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Continuing some of the same points from my previous posts,

How do you explain or justify a 'God' that enforces and condemns souls to an eternity of punishments and torments....to no end? How is such just, let alone sane? It is insane. Such is not really punishment, but a consistent and sadistic TORTURE. - I dont see how you can justify this as being the execution of a 'God' who is both 'just' and 'merciful',...because this punishment falls short of satisfying both principles. Again,...to what 'end' are these punishments producing?....since they are not corrective or beneficial to the sufferers in any way! - and to imagine 'God' Himself maintains the infliction of these torments and agony forever and ever and ever....is appalling, and violates the principles of his own standards, let alone his divine nature.

Philosopohically and morally, your assumption of the 'God' of eternal punishments is sickening.

I just added a more reasonable dissertation of the duration of punishments suffered by souls who violate the laws of God here, from a Spiritist perspective ( a collection of teachings from advanced spirits).

My former sharings on ECT have been compiled on my blog-post on ECT here.



pj

godrulz does not know that he interprets Gods word according to his own nature, and not Gods nature which he has little to nothing of.

The RCC doctrines he holds to seem right to him.

LA

 

[freelight]

Love's will is supreme.......

Love's will is supreme.......

you got that right

charity trumps all

Yes, and as long as God is Love...and souls choose to respond to Love....there is always hope of salvation, healing, wholeness, restoration. As long as a soul can respond to righteousness and repent (call on God, make amends, expiate, seek reparation), there is no reason to believe that God's eternal and all-pervading Love is withheld from such a one....let alone that 'God' would impose an eternal punishment that has no remedial purpose or just end, but for the endless TORTURE of that soul. This is why ECT is indefensible. - not even a loving mortal father would wish this upon his own children, let alone enforce the pain and suffering.

~*~*~

Furthermore,

One of the problems here is that various assumptions and beliefs are being 'squeezed' or 'filtered' within a pre-figured qualification of what is 'biblical' or not, which is according to one's own point of view or 'interpretation' of certain passages. One 'opinion' contends against other 'opinions'...and so the hamster wheel spins.

Not only is the concept of ECT problematic on many levels, but the definition of what is 'biblical' is also a matter of contention among so many persons and denominations who all use the 'Bible' as their religious text-book. When it is discovered that the Bible is not the only book or resource with insights and revelation upon this subject, one is free to expand his vision and consider a greater field of knowledge, all dimensions...not just a few limited ones within the narrow confines of dogma.



pj

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Oh yeah, that's always a good thing to say to God. :nono:



Nah! They just caught the express bus!



When Yeshua promises something, we can bank on it!

You must be a new idiot here.

Jesus was not in paradise on the day of His own death, so He certainly was not With the thief in paradise on that very day.

However Jesus will certainly be with the thief in paradise in the day of his Kingdom which was the answer to the question put to Him.--

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.


However according to Kione greek ,Jesus was saying to him this day.

So do not be a blockhead, engage your brain before operating your mouth.

LA

 

[Angel4Truth]

Do you believe people go straight to Hell following death, or do you believe there will be a resurrection and judgment?

Both, hell/hades and the lake of fire are 2 different places.

 

[Timotheos]

I don't know where you get that...

The transfiguration occurred.

Matthew 17:9
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."

 

[Timotheos]

You underestimate the evidence for ECT and overestimate it for your unbiblical view.

Okay, I understand your position and I disagree.

Self-taught can be dangerous in light of how nuanced and technical Greek can be. You will make rookie mistakes without formal expertise.

You are right, a little knowledge is dangerous. But I still think a little knowledge is better than no knowledge. And I think you are overestimating how "nuanced and technical" Greek is. After all, first grade children learn to read Greek, in Greece! So I'll take your warning and be careful, but I won't stop reading the NT a chapter a day in Greek, it is very rewarding. I've been doing this for over 4 years and I have to say that reading the NT in Greek is better than not reading the NT in Greek. Who knows? Maybe after 50 years, I'll have it mastered and know all there is to know and then I'll agree with you? But I'm not going to agree with you if the Scriptures don't agree with you, and I don't believe that you want me to.

Blessings to you, my Brother in Christ!

 

[Angel4Truth]

Matthew 17:9
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."

Yes, their having seen Elijah and Moses with Christ.

horama: that which is seen

Original Word: ὅραμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: horama
Phonetic Spelling: (hor'-am-ah)
Short Definition: a spectacle, vision
Definition: a spectacle, vision, that which is seen.

 

[Aimiel]

To say that your soul is present with the Lord because of your bodys death, is a false gospel, but you do not realize that.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I don't believe it's false at all.

Your idea comes from the spiritualists.

No, from Scripture.

When you sleep at night, are you conscious?

My spirit is. It is in perfect communion with The Holy Spirit, since I'm saved. God speaks to us in dreams and visions, because of our fallen mind.

To stand before God in ones sins and be judged will be terrifying, and to be thrown alive into the lake of fire, there would be much wailing and (gnashing) of teeth.

It won't be so terrifying. Those who are being judged will know that their judgment is just. They know what they did. They will remember every single sin.

Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

There will not be a single soul who will say anything at all to The Judge of The Universe at His decisions. They are irrefutable.

As the elements of the earth are burnt up by fire then how could anyone be conscious after they perish in Gods fire??? The ungodly are not given immortality.

Souls aren't made of elements. Souls are immortal.

Soul means life. There is no soul to be alive when you are dead, unless you are resurrected from the dead.

Dead merely means crossed over. You're looking at death from the perspective of a temporal being. God isn't temporal and neither are souls.

God sees lives as if they are alive in the case of the righteous and will raise them from the dead, and only then will they be alive with Him.

I believe that God stands in eternity and isn't affected by time.

 

[Timotheos]

Souls are immortal. Dead merely means crossed over. You're looking at death from the perspective of a temporal being. God isn't temporal and neither are souls.

Hi Aimiel,

I agree that God is immortal, "The King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality..." 1 Tim 6:15-16

However, this says that God ALONE is immortal, that means that souls are not naturally immortal, doesn't it? So souls are mortal.

Take a look at Matthew 10:28
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." So the soul can be destroyed in Gehenna (Hell).
The soul is not immortal, and can be destroyed in Gehenna.

Now look at Ezekiel 18:4
"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die."
The soul is not immortal, God can destroy the soul, and the soul who sins will die.
The soul dies, it doesn't live forever, it dies as a result of sin.

Look at Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
Since Jesus took our sins from us, we no longer owe the penalty for sin, which is death. Instead we can have eternal life. But this also means that whosoever rejects Jesus Christ will perish, and will not have eternal life.

The soul is not immortal, God can destroy the soul, the soul who sins will die, but whoever believes in Jesus Christ will not perish but will have eternal life.

 

[resurrected]

The soul is not immortal, God can destroy the soul, the soul who sins will die, but whoever believes in Jesus Christ will not perish but will have eternal life.

The soul is not immortal but the soul can be immortal? :freak:

I thought you were trying to use logic.

 

[Timotheos]

The soul is not immortal but the soul can be immortal? :freak:

I thought you were trying to use logic.

Hello Resurrected!
Happy Valentine's Day, my beloved brother!

Now, what part of "the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" are you not completely understanding? :box:

 

[Doormat]

The soul is not immortal, God can destroy the soul, the soul who sins will die, but whoever believes in Jesus Christ will not perish but will have eternal life.

The soul is not immortal but the soul can be immortal? :freak:

I thought you were trying to use logic.

A soul has a beginning.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Eternal means without beginning or end.

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

People who believe Jesus receive eternal life.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

People who do not believe Jesus have body and soul destroyed.

Matthew 10:28 And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.

 

[IMJerusha]

You must be a new idiot here.

Jesus was not in paradise on the day of His own death, so He certainly was not With the thief in paradise on that very day.

However Jesus will certainly be with the thief in paradise in the day of his Kingdom which was the answer to the question put to Him.--

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.


However according to Kione greek ,Jesus was saying to him this day.

So do not be a blockhead, engage your brain before operating your mouth.

LA

According to Delmar, I have the wisdom of the aged! :chuckle:

Mental deficiencies, LA, arise when one doesn't read the whole text:
"Then he said, 'Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.' Jesus answered him, 'Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.' "

Go insult someone else and tell Yeshua you're representing Him while you're at it!

 

[Timotheos]

Since there were no commas in the original:
"Then he said 'Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom.' Jesus answered him 'Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise.' "

Could be:
Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.
Or it could be:
Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.

But we know that Jesus was in the grave later that day, and was in the grave until early sunday morning...

 

[Doormat]

Do you believe people go straight to Hell following death, or do you believe there will be a resurrection and judgment?

Both, hell/hades and the lake of fire are 2 different places.

I'm not able to discern an answer from your response. Can you help me to understand your position better? There are a number of views of Hell and Hades. Why do you believe hell/hades is the same place? What do you believe the lake of fire is/means? Do you believe people go straight to hell/hades following death? Do you believe there will be a resurrection of the wicked and a judgement?

 

[Doormat]

But we know that Jesus was in the grave later that day, and was in the grave until early sunday morning...

Also, some posters likely believe the harrowing of hell (false) doctrine. If so, those posters can't claim Jesus was in paradise that day.