GeoffW
New member
Maybe we should be looking from the point of view of God's purpose in creation?
Maybe Gen.5:3 is quoting reality at this point from man's point of view?
Geoff.
ECT Is "Original sin" Seen by Others as Intrinsic Potential or latent in Creation as Evil
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Maybe we should be looking from the point of view of God's purpose in creation?
Maybe Gen.5:3 is quoting reality at this point from man's point of view?
Geoff.
When you get to 25 posts I think then you can edit, after it registers in the system etc.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You might not like the term "spiritually alive" but what the Lord Jesus said here speaks of "spiritual life":
"It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
The following verse is about receiving spiritual life and that happens when a person is quickened or made alive together with the Lord Jesus:
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).
When a person is quickened or made alive "together with" the Lord Jesus he is made alive spiritually and has passed from a state of being spiritually dead.
GeoffW
New member
GeoffW
New member
If you understood what I wrote you would also understand why I don't agree.
I know it isn't necessarily proof of anything, but I'm yet to find the phrase "spiritually dead" anywhere in scripture. I think there is a good reason for that.
Maybe I have missed it, but I don't think so.
Geoff.
Geoff.
The Genesis 5 passage is based on Genesis 1.
In Genesis 1, God builds into his various living creations there, the ability to reproduce "after their kind."
In other words, other than the rare special case in Scripture, God is not the One reproducing man after His image.
Rather, man is, Gen. 1:27, 28; Gen. 5:3.
Acts 17: 11, 12.
We are spiritually dead until we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.
Satan is in charge of the world.
GeoffW
New member
There's too much that you don't explain in the first sentence.
Was Adam spiritually alive? If he was, how did he transgress? If he wasn't, when did he get offered the chance to accept Jesus?
Adam ate, Adam died. What did that mean? Etc...
I believe Adam was created with the innocence of a child when born, he had no knowledge of good or evil.
God commanded him not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He did eat. He died.
I believe Young translates Gen. 2:17 best:
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.' YLT
What was the death that would lead to death?
I define that death as "having the knowledge of good and evil yet lacking the capacity to choose the good without the enabling spirit of God".
Why?
Because Jesus demonstrated that it is not possible for man to be good in and of himself.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
As for the second sentence.
If you can imagine that men could actually be more evil than they presently are, then God is restraining them. That doesn't sound like Satan is in charge to me.
Geoff.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In what sense is the word "dead" used here?:
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).
And when a person is quickened or made alive together with the Lord Jesus then what kind of life does he have then?
I know there are many verses involved.
You need to read the bible to find the truth yourself instead of asking around others in the forums. It is not complicated.
blessings.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So man is the producer of people's souls?
Derf
Well-known member
There is a hint here of a concept that is mentioned a few times in scripture, where the ancestors were thought to be better than the descendants. One such place is "[Jhn 8:53 KJV] Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?"
If we pass on the image of our father, and our father's father, and his father's father, leading back to Adam, then we are passing on an image of the one who was created in the image of God, thus we are created in the image of God, with some degradation over the generations.
Derf
Well-known member
I've been questioning the legitimacy of a number of standard "christian" phrases in recent years. This one is one I've been considering of late. I agree that I don't see it in scripture. Because it's not in scripture, though it might still be legitimate (like "trinity") it's hard to get a handle on what it means. I think it stems from a misunderstanding of some other concept, but if so, it permeates Christian thinking, including being a cornerstone of reformed thought.
GeoffW
New member
In the sense of being without hope, having a knowledge of what is good and what is evil, knowing that God's standard of righteousness that you aspire to is beyond your capacity to attain in and of yourself because you have spent a lifetime so far earnestly seeking to attain that standard and continually fall short.
Paul, in anguish of having been in search of this very same thing finally cries out with:
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Do I need to do on?
I contend that the phrase "spiritually dead" engenders a belief that man was once "spiritually alive" and the majority of people (if not all) who employ this phrase also accept (consciously or unconsciously) that man fell from this "spiritually alive" state when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge.
The belief in the the "fall of man" is the seed that "spiritually dead" grows from.
It is one of the greatest deceptions that exist. It suggests that man could have chosen righteousness, and the power to do so existed within his human potential. That's a lie. There is, and never will be anyone who is righteous in and of himself except he be enabled by the spirit of him who alone is righteous: God.
Geoff.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Scriptures reveal that, at least in theory, a person has the ability to attain eternal life by his own deeds or works (Ro.2:6-11). He has the ability but not the "will."
Do you really think that the Lord Jesus would tell anyone that they can obtain eternal life by keeping the law (Mt.19:16-17) if it was not, at least in theory, possible to obtain eternal life that way?
GeoffW
New member
Holy me of God, who were inspired by the spirit of God, wrote from the understanding that God gave them by his spirit that was in them.
Yes, reading the bible should be the cornerstone of our seeking because the spirit that inspired what these men wrote is the same spirit by which we understand what they wrote if indeed we gain any God given understanding.
Look around you and see the myriad of beliefs that claim to be biblically attained and tell me then that reading the bible is the way to truth. My belief is that I could still find the true God if I was lost for a lifetime on a deserted island with no bible to be found.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
I don't know whether you know it or not but you cannot replace 'word of God' in that verse with 'bible'.
I also give the above evidence (myriad of beliefs) that the bible is indeed 'complicated' when read without God's enabling.
As for the comment concerning the forums.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
I see this verse demonstrating the distinct possibility that you may be wrong. In fact, some of what I now believe grew out of these very discussions over many years now.
It also begs the question: what are you doing here?
Geoff.
By tomorrow probably for sure. :thumb: "Holy me of God" :chuckle:
I am Jesus' servant and spread Jesus simple teachings which most churches are not spreading or disregarding.