Is Mr. Jordan Peterson a false prophet or ravenous wolf?

[blueboy]

Giving someone the benefit of the doubt in this situation is to assume that he or she is not saved, and to continue to preach the gospel to them.

All I'm saying is that from a video clip we can't make a judgement on this guy. In general I thought much of what he said had merit.

Saved to you has a very different connotation to me and no doubt, Mr Peterson. Saved to me is a condition of moving towards God, rather than receding from God and that is a complex, whole of life process that will never be completed in this or the next life. Any of the worlds major religions can offer such an opportunity.

Preaching the gospel has been going on for thousands of years and yet here we are. Perhaps living the gospel might be the answer, as it's something humanity hasn't tried, in the sense of BELIEF as he defines it. I agree with Jordan, we are each responsible for our own spirituality and I don't believe preaching is the answer. I see preaching as more akin to religious entertainment, or theatre.

 

[Idolater]

Couple of red flags. The video was a slick production with a whole lot of full facials and an exposure of deep emotion, or seemingly deep emotion. Now this was done in many takes and that emotional stuff could have been redone, because it was meant to be about content and not personality. I will give him the benefit of the doubt, but it was a Disneyish, in that his deep revelation of self had to be signposted with a weeping shot.

Those are not hard to come by. It's completely well within his public character. If you're suggesting that he "turns on the water works" as a rhetorical device OK, but so do actors and actresses, for a living. Are you suggesting that their pursuit of career success is nefarious, just because they're pretending to cry?

This is all just in the case that he commonly cries because he's pretending to cry. If he's not pretending to cry and is in fact overwhelmed with emotion, do you still chalk up the crying as rhetorical, even in spite of himself? I do. But I still think it could be authentic that a grown man in his 50's might still become overwhelmed with emotion, like many of us were when we were infants and very young children. He would just be an outlier, but that doesn't mean he's faking it, like actors and actresses always do all the time, at the drop of a hat.

Anyway I warned you about the crying in the OP.

What worries me about this guy is that he is becoming incredibly rich from all this and there is a personality cult starting to grow around him. It remains to be seen if he can practice what he is preaching. The world is full of self-help, TV evangelist rubbish that serves no other purpose than to make a talking head filthy rich.

How rich? He has videos on the internet, lots of people do. He sells out small venues, there are lots of professional musicians who sell out enormous venues. How rich do you think he is? You sound paranoid actually, about how much money he probably has. As if it's a more obscene number than a career backup quarterback in the NFL. Do you think he's worth over 100 million USD? A career backup NFL quarterback is easily worth over 10 million USD, I think Mr. Peterson is worth between 10 and 100 million USD, do you want to make a bet? Do you know how many full time starting NFL quarterbacks and professional musicians and actors and actresses are worth over 100 million USD? Does that worry you even more? Than how "incredibly rich" you think Mr. Peterson is?

As for content, well he declares himself to not be an atheist, so we must accept that. And he is at that age of reflection when one's mortality becomes pretty obvious. We all need to reflect rather than follow blindly and behave as if God exists makes sense to me. Imagine a world in which the followers of all religions behaved as if they really believed. It would be heaven on earth.

Imagine a world in which the followers of atheism all behaved as if they really believed. Whoops, I guess we already have that.

He states that to say, God exists, comes with a very powerful caveat and he's not sure he can live up to that standard, (yet, or perhaps?) so he's on a path of self-actualising what a true state of belief might look like, or become in his life.

Yeah, in Catholic-ese, he's "discerning" right now.

He is closely observing his wife, whom he clearly has a great respect for and taking in the various forms and traits of her belief.

The general take-away as I see it is that Belief and Faith are calls to action, they are not philosophical concepts that begin and end with words and as such

I mentioned in the other thread traditional Christian ethics. I summed up the salient difference between traditional Christian ethics and atheist ethics with two values, going to church every week, and chastity. Atheists promote and defend and practice being peaceful, law abiding people, so that isn't included because it's not distinguishing. I give atheists the benefit of the doubt. As far as I know, no atheists promote going to church every week and chastity as absolute values. If they did, they would attempt to support their claims with objective results from social scientific or other scientific studies. They wouldn't argue that, because there is no God, therefore we should go to church every week and defend chastity. They would argue from consequences.

I wish him well.

Why wouldn't you? I've prayed for him. I've prayed for Presidents Trump, Biden and even Tsar Putin over there. Wishing someone ill isn't a traditional Christian nor a modern atheist value.

 

[Idolater]

All I'm saying is that from a video clip we can't make a judgement on this guy. In general I thought much of what he said had merit.

I'm interested if he'll convert. And if he does convert, to which tradition will he convert? Even if it's evangelical that's still a tradition by now, even though it's younger than Lutheran, Church of England, and Holy Orthodox, evangelical church is its own tradition by now.

Saved to you has a very different connotation to me and no doubt, Mr Peterson. Saved to me is a condition of moving towards God, rather than receding from God and that is a complex, whole of life process that will never be completed in this or the next life. Any of the worlds major religions can offer such an opportunity.

This is a philosophical question, do you know if social science has weighed in on this position with any data from studies? Are any of the many religious traditions correlated with more general prosperity? (I mean besides the Mormons, those folks are loaded.)

Preaching the gospel has been going on for thousands of years and yet here we are. Perhaps living the gospel might be the answer, as it's something humanity hasn't tried, in the sense of BELIEF as he defines it. I agree with Jordan, we are each responsible for our own spirituality and I don't believe preaching is the answer. I see preaching as more akin to religious entertainment, or theatre.

Traditional Christianity had this world in a choke hold with its hand grasped tightly around the throat of the whole world. Somehow, that grip was loosened, why? How? What's the end game? Have you thought of this?

The theater has been the history of the Church. If this is a centuries long religious entertainment performance, then what part of the plot are we in right now, do you think?

 

[JudgeRightly]

All I'm saying is that from a video clip we can't make a judgement on this guy.

Hence, "giving Him the benefit of the doubt and assume He's not a Christian.

Better to annoy a fellow believer with the gospel, than to assume a lost person has already accepted Christ as His Savior.

Saved to you has a very different connotation to me

I wasn't talking to you, though. I was talking to Marke, who at the very least, knows what I mean when I say "saved," or at least, a close enough approximation of it.

and no doubt, Mr Peterson.

Hence, giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Saved to me is a condition of moving towards God, rather than receding from God and that is a complex, whole of life process that will never be completed in this or the next life.

If that's your definition of "saved," then it's no wonder you aren't.

Any of the worlds major religions can offer such an opportunity.

Wrong.

Preaching the gospel has been going on for thousands of years

Try less than two thousand.

and yet here we are.

And?

Perhaps living the gospel might be the answer, as it's something humanity hasn't tried, in the sense of BELIEF as he defines it.

You cannot live the Christian life.

Spoiler

(Thanks @Clete)

That's why God sent His Son to die for us, so that we don't have to do anything to be saved.

Why won't you trust in Christ as your Lord and Savior and God?

I agree with Jordan, we are each responsible for our own spirituality and I don't believe preaching is the answer. I see preaching as more akin to religious entertainment, or theatre.

Paul says:

Now I myself am confident concerning you, my brethren, that you also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.Nevertheless, brethren, I have written more boldly to you on some points, as reminding you, because of the grace given to me by God,that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.Therefore I have reason to glory in Christ Jesus in the things which pertain to God.For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient—in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.And so I have made it my aim to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build on another man’s foundation,but as it is written: “To whom He was not announced, they shall see; And those who have not heard shall understand.” - Romans 15:14-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans15:14-21&version=NKJV

 

[Right Divider]

Saved to me is a condition of moving towards God, rather than receding from God and that is a complex, whole of life process that will never be completed in this or the next life.

Every time that you post, you prove more completely that you are not a Christian and not saved.

Heb 9:27 (AKJV/PCE)
(9:27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[Clete]

Saved to me is a condition of moving towards God, rather than receding from God and that is a complex, whole of life process that will never be completed in this or the next life.

Nobody cares, nor should they care what being saved is to you. It very simply is not a matter of opinion.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.​

​

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

I agree with Jordan, we are each responsible for our own spirituality and I don't believe preaching is the answer. I see preaching as more akin to religious entertainment, or theatre.

Nobody cares what you see preaching as, nor should they. It isn't your call to make.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:​

​

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”​

​

 

[blueboy]

Nobody cares, nor should they care what being saved is to you. It very simply is not a matter of opinion.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.​

​

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

Nobody cares what you see preaching as, nor should they. It isn't your call to make.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:​

​

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,​

Who bring glad tidings of good things!”​

​

What do you imagine, SAVED, means? Saved from what, saved for what, saved to do what?

"The world through Jesus might be saved," yes indeed. That is, a better state of existence might be experienced by humanity as it cleaves to and obeys the Teachings of Christ. Less hunger, less inequality, equality for women, a reduction in the conditions of the obscenely wealthy and the tragically poor. There are lots of physical states associated with being saved, but the SAVED talked about here is the condition of the human spirit.

Is one save by believing in Christ alone, or does it require living as a true Christian, with all the complex, self-sacrifice a true Christ would necessarily undertake for the love of Christ. In such a case the state of being SAVED is a condition of the spirit, the individual taking upon themselves virtues and moral integrity for the love of Christ and this is made possible because Christ existed and showed a path to a better, more fulfilling way of being human and being in the Good Graces of God.

So SAVED has little to do with belief and all to do with the corresponding actions caused by belief in Christ and the blueprint He revealed to save ones self. To not be saved is to live for one's self, to be materialistic, to reject the path to God.

I believe in Jesus, I have Faith, I believe in God, I go to church is not SAVED in the sense of the Scripture you provided. Belief and Faith only exist as descriptors of a Christian who is living the life in deeds and actions.

As far as preaching goes, in this enlightened age we are each responsible for our own spirituality. There are no religious experts, nor is there a seperate religious class of human, but there are of course those who have a greater knowledge than others. It is incumbent upon the Christian who is spiritually alive to share the Teachings of Christ with those who ask for it, rather than proselytising. And share means one must listen to and respect the religious beliefs of others. If Christians lived by deeds and not words this world would be transformed overnight, such is preaching.

As for the Scripture you quoted, as wonderful as it is, everything has evolved and changed across the last 2000 odd years, as such it is essential and it is also permissible to approach the Bible utilising the greater understandings of this age and not limit ourselves to the understandings of our ancient forefathers.

Thanks for your response, very much appreciated.

 

[blueboy]

Every time that you post, you prove more completely that you are not a Christian and not saved.

Heb 9:27 (AKJV/PCE)
(9:27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Fortunately that decision is above your pay grade.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What do you imagine, SAVED, means?

Again, it's not a matter of opinion. Saved means what it means.

Saved from what,

Eternal suffering. If you don't want to experience that, you need to repent!

saved for what, saved to do what?

Eternal life with God.

"The world through Jesus might be saved," yes indeed. That is, a better state of existence might be experienced by humanity as it cleaves to and obeys the Teachings of Christ.

If someone obeys the teachings of Christ today, he will not be saved.

Less hunger,

Hunger is a good thing. It makes people want to work to support themselves and their families.

less inequality,

Jesus never taught that inequality should be eliminated, or even lessened.

equality for women,

Where did Jesus teach "equality for women"?

a reduction in the conditions of the obscenely wealthy and the tragically poor.

You don't seem to have any idea about what Jesus actually taught about money and wealth...

Here's what Jesus said about money and wealth:

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,and said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went.Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise.And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’“So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius.But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius.And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner,saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ - Matthew 20:1-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew20:1-15&version=NKJV

"Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?"

There are lots of physical states associated with being saved,

Not in this context.

but the SAVED talked about here is the condition of the human spirit.

Supra.

Is one save by believing in Christ alone,

Try reading Scripture:

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” - Romans 10:9-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:9-13&version=NKJVB

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:8-9&version=NKJV

or does it require living as a true Christian,

It requires you to humble yourself and recognize that you cannot save yourself through any means.

with all the complex, self-sacrifice a true Christ would necessarily undertake for the love of Christ.

No amount of self-sacrifice will get you to heaven.

In such a case the state of being SAVED is a condition of the spirit, the individual taking upon themselves virtues and moral integrity for the love of Christ and this is made possible because Christ existed and showed a path to a better, more fulfilling way of being human and being in the Good Graces of God.

Again, there is nothing you can do, no number of virtues, no amount of moral integrity, that will get you to heaven. For "you are condemned already, because you have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

The reason is that you, blueboy, are a sinner who is guilty of breaking God's laws, and as such, payment for your sins is required. The only thing that will satisfy the demands of justice for your sins is your death, for "the wages of sin is death." Meaning that you must die in order to fully pay your balance. Of course, that means that you don't get to spend eternity with your Creator, because the death that is required isn't just a physical death, it's separation from God for all of eternity, and the torment of knowing that for the rest of eternity, you will never experience His love for you again.

Therefore, repent, turn and live! For "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." All you need to do is humble yourself before Him, and ask Him to forgive your sins, and "He faithful and just to forgive you your sins and cleanse you from all unrighteousnenss."

So SAVED has little to do with belief

Wrong.

and all to do with the corresponding actions caused by belief in Christ and the blueprint He revealed to save ones self.

You cannot save yourself, blueboy. It's not possible.

To not be saved is to live for one's self, to be materialistic, to reject the path to God.

Jesus is the only way to God, because He IS God.

I believe in Jesus, I have Faith, I believe in God, I go to church is not SAVED in the sense of the Scripture you provided.

The first three are. The fourth is not.

Belief and Faith only exist as descriptors of a Christian who is living the life in deeds and actions.

False.

As far as preaching goes, in this enlightened age we are each responsible for our own spirituality.

Contradicting scripture doesn't bode well for you.

There are no religious experts,

I can think of at least two...

nor is there a seperate religious class of human,

No one said there was.

but there are of course those who have a greater knowledge than others.

Do you claim to have that?

It is incumbent upon the Christian who is spiritually alive

As if there was any other kind of Christian.

to share the Teachings of Christ with those who ask for it,

If a Christian shares the teachings of Christ as this current dispensation, he is sowing confusion.

rather than proselytising.

Preaching the gospel is what Christians are supposed to do.

For:

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “ Lord, who has believed our report?”So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:14-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:14-17&version=NKJV

And share means one must listen to and respect the religious beliefs of others.

I don't have to respect the religious beliefs of someone who rejects the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

If Christians lived by deeds and not words this world would be transformed overnight, such is preaching.

Preaching is something Christians need to do, because if Christians remain silent, then no one will be made aware of the One who has redeemed the world to Himself, who is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

As for the Scripture you quoted, as wonderful as it is,

In other words, "I reject the scripture you just quoted."

everything has evolved and changed across the last 2000 odd years,

The Bible contains the same message that it has had for the past two thousand years.

as such it is essential and it is also permissible to approach the Bible utilising the greater understandings of this age

There is nothing wrong with using our current knowledge to obtain a greater understanding of what is said.

That said, that does NOT give you the right to completely ignore the original meaning of the text.

and not limit ourselves to the understandings of our ancient forefathers.

You want to just limit us to a modern interpretation of what the authors of the Bible said. What makes your position better?

 

[Idolater]

Catholicism doesn't believe in the Big Bang and evolution, Catholicism just doesn't make cosmology a matter of communion. We're supposed to fellowship with Catholics no matter our differences in our personal, private cosmologies or cosmological philosophies (origin theories). Catholicism is about the sacraments, especially the Eucharist, not about whether the Flood is nonfiction.

Bp. Barron in this video suggests that Catholicism endorses Big Bang, evolution cosmology but in fact Catholicism just doesn't make cosmology a matter of communion, unlike serious sins.

 

[Clete]

What do you imagine, SAVED, means?

It has nothing to do with my imagination. It has nothing to do with my opinions. It has nothing to do with anyone's opinions because it isn't a matter of opinion. People have their opinions but they're no more a reflection of the truth than if someone had the opinion that the sky was red.

Saved from what, saved for what, saved to do what?

In biblical Christianity a believer is saved from the consequences of his own sin so that a relationship between him and God is created/restored and can grow for the rest of eternity.

"The world through Jesus might be saved," yes indeed. That is, a better state of existence might be experienced by humanity as it cleaves to and obeys the Teachings of Christ. Less hunger, less inequality, equality for women, a reduction in the conditions of the obscenely wealthy and the tragically poor. There are lots of physical states associated with being saved, but the SAVED talked about here is the condition of the human spirit.

NONE of that has ANYTHING to do with being saved - period.
All of that is left-wing socialist clap trap that has much more to do with the Father of Lies than with anything having to do with Jesus Christ.

Is one save by believing in Christ alone, or does it require living as a true Christian, with all the complex, self-sacrifice a true Christ would necessarily undertake for the love of Christ.

There isn't anyway at all that you're a Christian other than, perhaps, in name only.

And, by the way, questions end with a question mark, not a period.

In such a case the state of being SAVED is a condition of the spirit, the individual taking upon themselves virtues and moral integrity for the love of Christ and this is made possible because Christ existed and showed a path to a better, more fulfilling way of being human and being in the Good Graces of God.

You know nothing. You would have hated Jesus Christ. If Jesus Christ ran against Donald Trump in an election, you'd definitely vote for Mr. Trump. That's how viscerally you'd have hated Jesus Christ. He wasn't tolerant, He'd have every homosexual publicly executed, as well as every murderer, rapist, child molester and adulterer. He'd insist that what you earned was yours - by right - and that no one's need could be rightly served up as a claim check on what belongs to you. He would end all forms of government welfare, which is theft, and leave people free to do with their own money what they saw fit to do with it, (including giving to the poor, if that's what they decided to do). As a result, it would only be those who refused to work that would go hungry, it would only be those who were immoral who would be shunned from society (as apposed to the righteous as is the case today), the murder rate would go practically to zero as would the over all crime rate to the point that we'd have hundreds of completely empty prisons and all sort of other societal ills would go away as well, not the least of which are things like teen pregnancy, suicide, poverty, gangs, drug dealing, unwed mothers, etc. etc. etc.

And you, with your left wing "equality" nonsense, would be dragged by your hair to this virtual paradise kicking and screaming about the injustice of it all.

So SAVED has little to do with belief and all to do with the corresponding actions caused by belief in Christ and the blueprint He revealed to save ones self. To not be saved is to live for one's self, to be materialistic, to reject the path to God.

Could not be further from the truth. You are not saved, blueboy. You have no idea what you're even talking about. If you do not repent, you will pay your own sin debt. Being saved has NOTHING to do with your actions. Any affect that being saved has on your actions is ancillary to being saved. Salvation is a free gift, paid for by Christ's actions. Your actions count for exactly zero against your sin debt. They are worthless and contribute NOTHING to your salvation.

I believe in Jesus, I have Faith, I believe in God, I go to church is not SAVED in the sense of the Scripture you provided. Belief and Faith only exist as descriptors of a Christian who is living the life in deeds and actions.

False.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.​

​

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:​

​

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,​

And whose sins are covered;​

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”​

As far as preaching goes, in this enlightened age we are each responsible for our own spirituality.

Utter stupidity.

The world is becoming darker, not more enlightened. The fact that you would think otherwise is just more proof that you simply have no idea what you're talking about.

There are no religious experts, nor is there a seperate religious class of human, but there are of course those who have a greater knowledge than others.

Are you sure?

It is incumbent upon the Christian who is spiritually alive to share the Teachings of Christ with those who ask for it, rather than proselytising.

Complete utter nonsense.

Where on Earth did you get this nugget of nonsense from, anyway? The bible certainly never teaches anything like this.

Romans 15:20 And so I have made it my aim to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build on another man’s foundation, 21 but as it is written:​

“To whom He was not announced, they shall see;​

And those who have not heard shall understand.”​

And share means one must listen to and respect the religious beliefs of others.

What if their religious beliefs tell them to kill Christians and their families? What if their religious beliefs tell them that its good to have sex with their own children? What if their religious beliefs tell them that they should offer their 12 year old daughter to the pastor? What if their religious beliefs tell them that blacks are descended from fallen angels? What if their religious beliefs tell them that women should cover their face and keep their mouths shut and not speak unless spoken too?

You, you personally, know people who believe such things!

If Christians lived by deeds and not words this world would be transformed overnight, such is preaching.

If bears were vegetarians they wouldn't eat meat.

As for the Scripture you quoted, as wonderful as it is, everything has evolved and changed across the last 2000 odd years, as such it is essential and it is also permissible to approach the Bible utilising the greater understandings of this age and not limit ourselves to the understandings of our ancient forefathers.

So, ignore the bible to whatever degree you want and pick and choose the parts you want to pay attention too because you're more enlightened than Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Jesus, Peter, James, John, Paul and whoever else might have contributed to the writing of the bible (like God Himself for example).

I mean which parts of the bible does this "modern enlightenment" trump card not over ride and why?

Don't try to answer that question. There is no answer to that question that doesn't boil down to "It's up to a person's personal opinions."

Thanks for your response, very much appreciated.

That's what we're here for, right?


Clete

 

[Right Divider]

Fortunately that decision is above your pay grade.

Trying to redirect will not hide your ignorance.

 

[blueboy]

It has nothing to do with my imagination. It has nothing to do with my opinions. It has nothing to do with anyone's opinions because it isn't a matter of opinion. People have their opinions but they're no more a reflection of the truth than if someone had the opinion that the sky was red.


In biblical Christianity a believer is saved from the consequences of his own sin so that a relationship between him and God is created/restored and can grow for the rest of eternity.


NONE of that has ANYTHING to do with being saved - period.
All of that is left-wing socialist clap trap that has much more to do with the Father of Lies than with anything having to do with Jesus Christ.


There isn't anyway at all that you're a Christian other than, perhaps, in name only.

And, by the way, questions end with a question mark, not a period.


You know nothing. You would have hated Jesus Christ. If Jesus Christ ran against Donald Trump in an election, you'd definitely vote for Mr. Trump. That's how viscerally you'd have hated Jesus Christ. He wasn't tolerant, He'd have every homosexual publicly executed, as well as every murderer, rapist, child molester and adulterer. He'd insist that what you earned was yours - by right - and that no one's need could be rightly served up as a claim check on what belongs to you. He would end all forms of government welfare, which is theft, and leave people free to do with their own money what they saw fit to do with it, (including giving to the poor, if that's what they decided to do). As a result, it would only be those who refused to work that would go hungry, it would only be those who were immoral who would be shunned from society (as apposed to the righteous as is the case today), the murder rate would go practically to zero as would the over all crime rate to the point that we'd have hundreds of completely empty prisons and all sort of other societal ills would go away as well, not the least of which are things like teen pregnancy, suicide, poverty, gangs, drug dealing, unwed mothers, etc. etc. etc.

And you, with your left wing "equality" nonsense, would be dragged by your hair to this virtual paradise kicking and screaming about the injustice of it all.


Could not be further from the truth. You are not saved, blueboy. You have no idea what you're even talking about. If you do not repent, you will pay your own sin debt. Being saved has NOTHING to do with your actions. Any affect that being saved has on your actions is ancillary to being saved. Salvation is a free gift, paid for by Christ's actions. Your actions count for exactly zero against your sin debt. They are worthless and contribute NOTHING to your salvation.


False.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.​

​

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:​

​

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,​

And whose sins are covered;​

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”​

Utter stupidity.

The world is becoming darker, not more enlightened. The fact that you would think otherwise is just more proof that you simply have no idea what you're talking about.


Are you sure?


Complete utter nonsense.

Where on Earth did you get this nugget of nonsense from, anyway? The bible certainly never teaches anything like this.

Romans 15:20 And so I have made it my aim to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build on another man’s foundation, 21 but as it is written:​

“To whom He was not announced, they shall see;​

And those who have not heard shall understand.”​

What if their religious beliefs tell them to kill Christians and their families? What if their religious beliefs tell them that its good to have sex with their own children? What if their religious beliefs tell them that they should offer their 12 year old daughter to the pastor? What if their religious beliefs tell them that blacks are descended from fallen angels? What if their religious beliefs tell them that women should cover their face and keep their mouths shut and not speak unless spoken too?

You, you personally, know people who believe such things!

If bears were vegetarians they wouldn't eat meat.


So, ignore the bible to whatever degree you want and pick and choose the parts you want to pay attention too because you're more enlightened than Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Jesus, Peter, James, John, Paul and whoever else might have contributed to the writing of the bible (like God Himself for example).

I mean which parts of the bible does this "modern enlightenment" trump card not over ride and why?

Don't try to answer that question. There is no answer to that question that doesn't boil down to "It's up to a person's personal opinions."


That's what we're here for, right?


Clete

Everything we each believe is an opinion and that includes Scripture. Sometimes the sky is red.

Biblical Christianity is no different than most other religions. There is a moral, virtuous way to live and one way or another this is described as, saved, meaning that the quality of ones eternal life is prepared, one has their spiritual limbs to continue the progress towards God.

Left-wing socialist crap, yes how extraordinary that when conversing with so many different types of Christians, the moment one mentions the poor, the hungry, the vast disparity between rich and poor, equality of men and women one becomes labelled as you have labelled me. Have you not read the example that Jesus set? Do you imagine Jesus as right-wing plutocrat?

And thank you for the English lesson, yet another nit-picker who can't see the forest for the trees.

As for the next paragraph, it revealed you in all your glory. Absolutely beyond the pale. Enough. A most disgusting post.

Firstly, I loath Trump. The US, a country made up of wonderful people and tremendous ideals, has been saddled with a tragic sequence of criminal, dimwitted presidents.

Secondly, the rest concerning how you see Jesus is abominable. You are sickening and in good company on this site and I have no desire to converse with such a corrupted, contemptible being who dares to claim he is Christian and who makes such claims about Christ.

Don't bother replying, just crawl back into the whole you came out of.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Everything we each believe is an opinion and that includes Scripture.

Wrong. That might be true about you, but we believe in what is true.

Sometimes the sky is red.

Which isn't a matter of opinion, now, is it?

Biblical Christianity is no different than most other religions.

Yes it is.

There is a moral, virtuous way to live and one way or another this is described as, saved, meaning that the quality of ones eternal life is prepared, one has their spiritual limbs to continue the progress towards God.

Again, clearly, you have no idea what it means to be saved, despite having been told TWICE just now.

Left-wing socialist crap,

That is indeed what you are promoting.

yes how extraordinary that when conversing with so many different types of Christians, the moment one mentions the poor,

God said:

For the poor will never cease from the land; therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall open your hand wide to your brother, to your poor and your needy, in your land.’ - Deuteronomy 15:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy15:11&version=NKJV

For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. - Matthew 26:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew26:11&version=NKJV

For the poor you have with you always, but Me you do not have always.” - John 12:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:8&version=NKJV

the hungry,

God said:

Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” - Genesis 3:17-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis3:17-19&version=NKJV

the vast disparity between rich and poor,

You don't seem to have any idea about what Jesus actually taught about money and wealth...

Again, here's what Jesus said about money and wealth:

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,and said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went.Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise.And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’“So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius.But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius.And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner,saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ - Matthew 20:1-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew20:1-15&version=NKJV

"Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?"

equality of men and women

Men and women are not equal.

one becomes labelled as you have labelled me.

We label you rightly.

Have you not read the example that Jesus set?

You clearly haven't.

Do you imagine Jesus as right-wing plutocrat?

Plutocrat: a person whose power derives from their wealth.

No, Jesus was not a plutocrat.

He is the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Almighty God.

And yes, Jesus was as far right as you can get on the spectrum, because He is righteous.

Everything else on the spectrum is to the left of Him.

And thank you for the English lesson, yet another nit-picker who can't see the forest for the trees.

You're welcome.

As for the next paragraph, it revealed you in all your glory. Absolutely beyond the pale. Enough. A most disgusting post.

High praise coming from someone who hates God.

You should read (or not) https://kgov.com/nice.

Firstly, I loath Trump.

We love him enough to want him to repent.

See the difference?

The US, a country made up of wonderful people and tremendous ideals,

Not really.

has been saddled with a tragic sequence of criminal, dimwitted presidents.

How is this relevant?

Clete said that if you were given the choice between only Jesus and Trump, you would choose Trump over Jesus, because you would hate the real Jesus Christ.

Secondly, the rest concerning how you see Jesus is abominable.

Says the one who knows nothing about Him...

You are sickening and in good company on this site and I have no desire to converse with such a corrupted, contemptible being who dares to claim he is Christian and who makes such claims about Christ.

Supra.

Don't bother replying, just crawl back into the whole you came out of.

*hole

 

[Idolater]

Everything we each believe is an opinion and that includes Scripture. Sometimes the sky is red.

Is what we believe fictional or not. Fictional symbols and words don't refer to anything nonfictional, such as concrete objects and abstract realities like patterns. A perfect circle doesn't exist in nature or in the laboratory, nor can it, but that doesn't mean a perfect circle is fictional, because its concept is very clear. That concept is not self-contradictory.

Define your terms. What do you mean by "sometimes the sky is red?" Do you mean that sometimes it literally is red, or do you mean that sometimes it is something we should take seriously when someone says that in general the sky is red, when it's clearly generally blue?

If those aren't contradictory then they at least approach contraries, meaning they can both be false, but they can't both be true. So can you clear that up, by defining your term "sometimes the sky is red"?

Biblical Christianity is no different than most other religions. There is a moral, virtuous way to live and one way or another this is described as, saved, meaning that the quality of ones eternal life is prepared, one has their spiritual limbs to continue the progress towards God.

Complete falsity. 100% false. And I'm Catholic, and I'm saying this is Catholicism speaking, not just my opinion. I can cite my authentically authoritative sources.

100 percent false.

The only "moral, virtuous way to live" which renders anybody saved is faith in Christ (aka basically the Gospel). So in fact the Catholic faith is completely different from "most other religions." You're completely wrong.

When I'm saying you can crystalize the difference between atheist ethics and Catholic (aka traditional Christian, in the ethical context) ethics I enumerated two absolute values to Christian tradition: going to church weekly, and chastity. The fact that these two absolute values define distinct traditional Christian ethics, is apparently contradictory with what I wrote above, but it's not so.

Heaven does not depend on our not sinning, or living the traditional Christian ethics in our life. What do Catholics pray at the Mass? "Look not on our sins, but on the faith of Your church." Sins are all violations of Catholic ethics. So therefore the quality of one's eternal life cannot be prepared based on "a moral, virtuous way to live," not unless by that you explicitly mean to include mere belief, apart from any ethical law.

Perhaps you need to learn more about Catholicism. Here is a link to answer the first question you seem to struggle to accept about the Church: We don't limit what we believe to the whole Bible. The whole Bible corroborates all that we believe, it does not contradict it, but the whole Bible is not the whole source of our authentic authority, Jesus, through His Apostles (Apostolicity), is.

Bible at Core of Catholic Beliefs

By Monsignor J. Brian Bransfield People ask if everything Catholics believe is found in the Bible. The answer? Both “yes” and “no.” The Church “doe...

www.usccb.org

Left-wing socialist crap, yes how extraordinary that when conversing with so many different types of Christians, the moment one mentions the poor, the hungry, the vast disparity between rich and poor, equality of men and women one becomes labelled as you have labelled me. Have you not read the example that Jesus set? Do you imagine Jesus as right-wing plutocrat?

You just mean Republican. Can I imagine Jesus supporting Republicans? Yeah. Lincoln was a Republican, for sure Jesus supported both the perpetual Union between the United States, and the absolute abolition of human slavery, both. He was a Republican then (and during Reconstruction), why couldn't He be a Republican now? No reason why He couldn't be.

And thank you for the English lesson, yet another nit-picker who can't see the forest for the trees.

As for the next paragraph, it revealed you in all your glory. Absolutely beyond the pale. Enough. A most disgusting post.

Firstly, I loath Trump. The US, a country made up of wonderful people and tremendous ideals, has been saddled with a tragic sequence of criminal, dimwitted presidents.

Says the man who never got elected president, about all the men who did get elected president. Prove this isn't just sour grapes.

Secondly, the rest concerning how you see Jesus is abominable. You are sickening and in good company on this site and I have no desire to converse with such a corrupted, contemptible being who dares to claim he is Christian and who makes such claims about Christ.

Don't bother replying, just crawl back into the whole you came out of.

No way Clete's Catholic, even if he is Catholic wrt the Trinity and the Nicene Creed (except for "I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins" because it's too ambiguous because it could mean water baptism, which is verboten to his Dispensationalist theology and or ecclesiology).

In no way does Clete represent Catholicism, except accidentally, such as him agreeing with Catholicism that chastity is an absolute value.

Don't mistake Clete for a Catholic, not even a little. Catholics don't. You make a category error when you lump together Catholics with evangelicals. Catholicism believes the Catholic Church is literally the Church in the Bible. Evangelicals don't even believe such a thing exists, let alone that any or even all of the evangelical churches are the Church in the Bible. Evangelical ecclesiology basically believes the Church in the Bible doesn't exist anymore.

So please don't mix them up. Catholics and evangelicals are closer to Christians versus atheists, or Christians versus Muslims, than they are to being all in one category together. We Catholics believe in the same deity as the evangelicals, yes, but so do Muslims and Christians and Jews. We all believe in what Catholicism calls Him, God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth. Muslims call Him Allah.

 

[Clete]

Everything we each believe is an opinion and that includes Scripture.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Sometimes the sky is red.

No, it isn't. The sky is blue, not red. The clouds can reflect red light during sunrise and sunset but the clouds aren't the sky.

Biblical Christianity is no different than most other religions.

Except that it's true and the others aren't.

There is a moral, virtuous way to live and one way or another this is described as, saved, meaning that the quality of ones eternal life is prepared, one has their spiritual limbs to continue the progress towards God.

You flatly don't know what you're talking about. Christianity, that is actually biblical Christianity, teaches that YOU cannot live a "moral, virtuous" life.

You Cannot Live the Christian Life

And that's just one of several fundament differences between Christianity and any other religion. Of course, you'd know that if you were one.

Left-wing socialist crap, yes how extraordinary that when conversing with so many different types of Christians, the moment one mentions the poor, the hungry, the vast disparity between rich and poor, equality of men and women one becomes labelled as you have labelled me.

Every syllable of what you said was liberal clap trap and you know it. Everything you'd propose to fix the problems you cite are the cause of those problems and would make them worse.

Have you not read the example that Jesus set? Do you imagine Jesus as right-wing plutocrat?

I can't imagine how the term 'plutocrat' would have ever occurred to you in relation to anything I've said. Do you know what the word means?

Regardless, He would certainly be considered a right-wing extremist by you and any other person alive today that thinks of themselves as even leaning a little bit to the left. He'd be called a racist, a bigot and a Nazi and they'd accuse him of hating women but a "plutocrat", no. No one would ever think that Jesus' authority is derived from His wealth.

And thank you for the English lesson, yet another nit-picker who can't see the forest for the trees.

I'm perfectly comfortable overlooking typos. Lord knows I make more than my share of them. It's only people who think of themselves as "enlightened" or in some other way superior, especially to the people who wrote the bible, that I start "picking nits", as you put it. It's no surprise that you'd have missed the point.

As for the next paragraph, it revealed you in all your glory. Absolutely beyond the pale. Enough. A most disgusting post.

Told you!

If you think I'm "disgusting" you'd have literally thrown rocks at Jesus!

Firstly, I loath Trump.

Yes, I guessed that. That's why I said what I said. You'd vote for Trump every day of the week and twice on Sundays if he was running against Jesus Christ.

The US, a country made up of wonderful people and tremendous ideals, has been saddled with a tragic sequence of criminal, dimwitted presidents.

Like Clinton, Bush, Obama and now Biden. Biden is LITERALLY dimwitted now but he hasn't always been. He is easily the most corrupt man that has ever sat at the Resolute Desk.

Secondly, the rest concerning how you see Jesus is abominable.

LOL!

You're so laughably predictable.

You are sickening and in good company on this site and I have no desire to converse with such a corrupted, contemptible being who dares to claim he is Christian and who makes such claims about Christ.

I love it how standing up for the truth and morality makes pretenders stand up a scream!

Don't bother replying, just crawl back into the whole you came out of.

Oh, you can forget about that happening! You're are the prototypical wolf in sheep's clothing. It is my duty to strip your enlightened backside and display it in all its naked glory. (Go ahead and accuse me of showing my backside. I know that's what just popped into your head to say! )

Clete

 

[Clete]

In no way does Clete represent Catholicism, except accidentally, such as him agreeing with Catholicism that chastity is an absolute value.

Why would I ever want to represent Catholicism? I am not a Catholic nor would I ever want to be accidentally thought of as being Catholic. Catholics believe one unbiblical and contradictory doctrine after another. There are very definitely a great many Catholics who are saved Christians but they are so in spite of Catholicism. The overwhelmingly vast majority of Catholics worship Mary and the wrong Jesus and believe things about God that would make Him unjust, as do their reformed friends, the Calvinists.

Don't mistake Clete for a Catholic, not even a little. Catholics don't.

You make a category error when you lump together Catholics with evangelicals.

For "evangelicals" read "biblical Christians".

Catholicism believes the Catholic Church is literally the Church in the Bible.

And Yehweh Ben Yehweh believed he was God incarnate and lots of people still do!

In other words, anyone can believe anything they want. It doesn't make it so.

Evangelicals don't even believe such a thing exists, let alone that any or even all of the evangelical churches are the Church in the Bible.

There are several things you could mean by this so I won't go into it here in detail. I'll just say that God has always preserved for Himself a remnant and that there has never left the Earth a group of people who believe the gospel, which is all "the church" is.

Evangelical ecclesiology basically believes the Church in the Bible doesn't exist anymore.

That statement is flatly false. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. You are THE only person I've ever even heard make that accusation before never mind actually teach it as the truth.

So please don't mix them up. Catholics and evangelicals are closer to Christians versus atheists, or Christians versus Muslims, than they are to being all in one category together.

Sheesh! That's also entirely false. If that were so, then there'd be no one saved at all in one or the other group. Do you actually believe that those Christians who don't call themselves Catholic and pray to Mary and submit themselves to a Pope or confess their sins to a preist and reject thoroughly unbiblical and unjust doctrines such as the existence of Purgatory, aren't really Christians at all and aren't saved?

We Catholics believe in the same deity as the evangelicals, yes, but so do Muslims and Christians and Jews.

This is false too!

Reading what we call the Old Testament doesn't make you a believer in the true God any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car. Muslims and Jews have rejected their Creator and will die in their sin just as Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses and those folks who follow Yehweh Ben Yehweh will. They worship a god that does not exist.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.​

We all believe in what Catholicism calls Him, God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth. Muslims call Him Allah.

Jesus is the "Maker of Heaven and Earth".

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.​

​

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.​

Clete

 

[Idolater]

 

[Idolater]

I'm interested if he'll convert.

Word on the street is that his wife is going to or already has converted to Catholicism, fwiw.

tammy peterson catholic at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

 

[fzappa13]

I've watched Jordan for some time now and then I stopped. I suppose that is probably somewhat unnecessarily dismissive in that we are all works in progress; him and me included. I guess I saw just enough of what I didn't like about me in him to recognize the deficiencies in his approach to "truth." Those of us gifted by God with a little bit of a gift as it concerns intellect begin to become enamored of it to the point of becoming reliant upon it as the sole arbiter of the truth of what we are faced with in the way of life experience. It never occurs to us that there is some truth beyond the reach of our intellect. Live long enough and you get smacked in the face that dead fish that is the realization that this is simply not the case. He may be on the cusp of this realization but it appears that he's not quite there just yet.

Having succumbed to the notion that the Bible may well be true I studied it dutifully from an intellectual perspective. It wasn't until I was taught the value of love by a friend that the rest of it began to make sense. I fear that Jordan is still approaching the subject of the Bible from a strictly intellectual standpoint confidant that the Bible is, at the end of the day, so much superstition that has some value as an "archetype" but is somewhat shy of his chosen reality. Speaking from experience, love, and only love, is the inoculation for that malady.