PKevman
New member
You mean they don't tell you that you aren't saved and are going to hell????
No, that's left for the Mystery's and the Elohiym's.
Is elohiym an idiot?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
No, that's left for the Mystery's and the Elohiym's.
elohiym
Well-known member
If there were professional hypocrites you could make a lot of money.
elohiym
Well-known member
Or is it you? Or maybe PK? :think:
This thread is your attempt at divisiveness, and I could point to plenty of posts where PK is divisive. It isn't a good idea to throw rocks when you live in a glass house, Knight.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
elected4ever
New member
There must be a line drawn somewhere. Otherwise you will be saying amen to the doctrine of devils. :chew: on that for a while.
It could be!
Maybe it is me and PK. :think:
How about this......
I will agree that I might be guilty of being the divisive, sinning man in Titus 3:10 if you will agree that it also might be you.
DEAL?
elected4ever
New member
Now that's dumb, seeing that nether of you are sinners
elohiym
Well-known member
I guess it is easier for you to post same hyperbolic drivel than to actually argue against my position using the Bible. Jesus encountered the same opposition when he told people to repent or perish.
I just explained how those who are born of God are perfected in spirit, not flesh; and I also explained previously that people who continue to sin, like murder, rape, molest children, were never Christians.
It's too bad that you seem to believe that people can be Christians while they murder people or molest children. Could that be why there are so many child molesters in the churches, because of the false doctrine that allows them to remain thinking they are actually Christians? I think so.
Here is my last post that you conveniently ignored, in direct response to your request to correct you if you were wrong about my position:
Yup!
2Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Has your old man, the sinner, passed away, Knight? Or is he still busy sinning when he gets the chance? If he's busy sinning then the old has not passed away in your life, and you have not become new.
That's the crux of our difference, Knight. You don't understand what it means to live perfectly in the spirit because you are focused on the flesh. Flesh can NEVER be perfected, but our spirit IS perfect.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
If you fulfill the lusts of the flesh (sin) it can ONLY mean that you are not walking in the spirit.
Yup! It's evidence that they aren't converted, but are still carnal. They don't get it yet.
Gal 2:17-18 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Paul was addressing believers in Titus 3...
Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. :9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
It should be clear that Paul is talking to believers and saying that it isn't profitable or helpful to waste time with divisive brothers.It's pretty well accepted that Paul was admonishing Titus to avoid things that promote wickedness among fellow believers.
And what's the next thing Paul says?
Titus 3:11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
Paul says the same thing here....
2Thessalonians 3:13 But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Lets not lose this in the shuffle.....
Lets not lose this in the shuffle.....
Maybe it is me and PK. :think:
How about this......
I will agree that I might be guilty of being the divisive, sinning man in Titus 3:10 if you will agree that it also might be you.
DEAL?
Lets not lose this in the shuffle.....
It could be!
Maybe it is me and PK. :think:
How about this......
I will agree that I might be guilty of being the divisive, sinning man in Titus 3:10 if you will agree that it also might be you.
DEAL?
elohiym
Well-known member
Do you believe Jesus was guilty of being a divisive sinning man when he rebuked the self-righteous hypocrites or whipped the money changers out of the temple?
You will be judged by your standard, Knight, not me. You have already accepted that deal. I reject it.
elohiym
Well-known member
I would disagree that they were divisive "brothers," since they are not doing God's will (Mat 12:50) and the wheat and tares are growing together.
That being said, if I met you or PK on the street, I would avoid you both and not waste any time. However, you have a popular internet forum which attracts an audience. Among the viewers are His sheep, and they will hear His voice. Therefore, it is worth disputing these matters with you even though I know you and PK will never understand what I am telling you.
No deal eh? :rotfl: Wow I never saw that one coming.
All I asked was if it were POSSIBLE for you to be the divisive man elohiym, I didn't say you WERE being the divisive man (at least not in my DEAL or NO DEAL).
Oh well.....
elohiym is perfect, that's why he can't be the divisive man, in fact, he can't do anything wrong! He is perfect in all his ways because he is a Christian by his definition. The rest of us poor shlucks are reprobate.
Let me ask one more time so you can clarify for us.....
Is it theoretically possible for you to be a divisive man?
Ahh... I see how it works, you expect me to not avoid you here on this forum, in fact you expect me to allow you to participate on my forum that I created and own, yet you wouldn't grant me the same treatment in return? Is that how the golden rule works? :think:
elohiym
Well-known member
Ah, so now you want to ask a question instead of make some Faustian deal. I see.
In answer to you question, yes, it is possible for me to be divisive. However, I can only be divisive if it is God's will for me to be divisive, which is not what Paul was writing about. I can divide the hypocrites against each other, as Paul did himself...
Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
That was Paul being divisive!
elected4ever
New member
This is a case where the definition should have been used and not the word sinning which is the word customarily translated. the passage should read, knowing that such a person is warped and missing the mark or in error, being self-condemned. Yea we can do some pretty stupid things that does not make us opposed to our Father. It's like us saying, avoid these stupid people.
elohiym
Well-known member
You are welcome to avoid me on this forum, and you usually did avoid me. This thread was not my idea, but your idea.
I don't expect you to allow me to participate on your forum, but I exchanged money for the opportunity to share my beliefs on this forum with anyone who will listen. I try to abide by the biased, ambiguous, shifting sands you claim are the rules of this place, but obviously fail at keeping those rules when I respond to your lackeys in kind.
I support this forum because I like it, not you. I appreciate your willingness to operate the forum, and respect your authority when it doesn't blatantly contradict God's word.
That isn't true.
You didn't exchange money to participate on this forum and you know that. Participation on this forum is free.
If you are referring to your paid subscription....
Your subscription does not grant you participation, instead it grants you forum perks, i.e., less advertising, more features, etc.
Which brings up a great point..... everyone reading this thread should upgrade their TOL account!
I do not appreciate your words regarding TOL's awesome moderators. Consider this a free warning.
Yikes... this is like pulling teeth with you!
Let me revise the question....
Is it theoretically possible for you to be a divisive man in a bad way? (i.e., could it ever be possible that a Christian rightly reject you for being divisive - similar to Titus 3:11)
Knight, Pastor Kevin and the other TOL members, thanks for the positive comments! I appreciate it!
So, it is very apparent that you hold to a "sinless perfection" doctrine. As with your mis-application of 1 John and other Scriptures, it ALWAYS comes down to rightly dividing the Word.
In the book of Romans, chapter 6 deals with the Two Natures of the Believer. If this doctrine were not vitally important to your success and mine, God would not have spent so much time on it in His Word. Actually, it runs all through the Pauline Epistles--the message of Christ risen and glorified.
In Romans 6, the person you were as you came from Adam was executed through the death of your Substitute on Calvary. However, the sinful nature of your former person--your "old man"--continues to dwell in and seek to rule your mortal body. God sees you now, not as the person you were under condemnation and death, but as the person you are in righteousness and life. You and I were taken out of the realm of the flesh and placed in the realm of the Spirit the moment that we were saved, but the flesh was not then taken out of us. That old sinful capacity is still with us this side of Heaven. We are saved people living in unsaved ("mortal") bodies. When we lose the unsaved body, we will lose the sin nature that belongs to it. This will ONLY happen at death or rapture.
When we are saved, a battle begins between our saved soul and our unsaved body. Paul writes of this battle that continues within us even after our salvation,
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do.
Rom 7:20 But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I working it out, but sin dwelling in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law: when I will to do the right, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
It CANNOT get any clearer than that. Those verses/context make it 100% clear that we still retain the sinful fallen nature after salvation. So, we do and will sin.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace,
Eph 4:32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you.
Ahhhh...The ol' "unpardonable sin".:chew:
These words of this "warning" came from Jesus Christ while He walked among men in His earthly ministry. They were addressed to the religious leaders of the nation Israel. Their blasphemy against Him even when He hung on the Cross was forgiven by the Father in answer to the prayer, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).
But when at Pentecost, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, announced the return of Messiah on the condition of Israel's national repentance, these leaders instigated a persecution that reached its climax in the stoning of Stephen, a godly man, "full of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 7:54-60). It was here that the "unpardonable sin" was committed by Israel's leaders. The Third Person of the Trinity had been blasphemed and His pleadings through the Apostles ignored. This sin will never be forgiven.
In this age it is blessedly true that "we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7). Though all sin is unpardoned till it is forgiven, it is not unpardonable. Christ died for all sin. The penalty has been paid and God now offers eternal life as a gift to be received by faith.
I appreciate it!So, it is very apparent that you hold to a "sinless perfection" doctrine. As with your mis-application of 1 John and other Scriptures, it ALWAYS comes down to rightly dividing the Word.
In the book of Romans, chapter 6 deals with the Two Natures of the Believer. If this doctrine were not vitally important to your success and mine, God would not have spent so much time on it in His Word. Actually, it runs all through the Pauline Epistles--the message of Christ risen and glorified.
In Romans 6, the person you were as you came from Adam was executed through the death of your Substitute on Calvary. However, the sinful nature of your former person--your "old man"--continues to dwell in and seek to rule your mortal body. God sees you now, not as the person you were under condemnation and death, but as the person you are in righteousness and life. You and I were taken out of the realm of the flesh and placed in the realm of the Spirit the moment that we were saved, but the flesh was not then taken out of us. That old sinful capacity is still with us this side of Heaven. We are saved people living in unsaved ("mortal") bodies. When we lose the unsaved body, we will lose the sin nature that belongs to it. This will ONLY happen at death or rapture.
When we are saved, a battle begins between our saved soul and our unsaved body. Paul writes of this battle that continues within us even after our salvation,
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do.
Rom 7:20 But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I working it out, but sin dwelling in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law: when I will to do the right, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
It CANNOT get any clearer than that. Those verses/context make it 100% clear that we still retain the sinful fallen nature after salvation. So, we do and will sin.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace,
Eph 4:32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you.
Ahhhh...The ol' "unpardonable sin".:chew:
These words of this "warning" came from Jesus Christ while He walked among men in His earthly ministry. They were addressed to the religious leaders of the nation Israel. Their blasphemy against Him even when He hung on the Cross was forgiven by the Father in answer to the prayer, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).
But when at Pentecost, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, announced the return of Messiah on the condition of Israel's national repentance, these leaders instigated a persecution that reached its climax in the stoning of Stephen, a godly man, "full of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 7:54-60). It was here that the "unpardonable sin" was committed by Israel's leaders. The Third Person of the Trinity had been blasphemed and His pleadings through the Apostles ignored. This sin will never be forgiven.
In this age it is blessedly true that "we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7). Though all sin is unpardoned till it is forgiven, it is not unpardonable. Christ died for all sin. The penalty has been paid and God now offers eternal life as a gift to be received by faith.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Knight, Pastor Kevin and the other TOL members, thanks for the positive comments!
So, it is very apparent that you hold to a "sinless perfection" doctrine. As with your mis-application of 1 John and other Scriptures, it ALWAYS comes down to rightly dividing the Word.
In the book of Romans, chapter 6 deals with the Two Natures of the Believer. If this doctrine were not vitally important to your success and mine, God would not have spent so much time on it in His Word. Actually, it runs all through the Pauline Epistles--the message of Christ risen and glorified.
In Romans 6, the person you were as you came from Adam was executed through the death of your Substitute on Calvary. However, the sinful nature of your former person--your "old man"--continues to dwell in and seek to rule your mortal body. God sees you now, not as the person you were under condemnation and death, but as the person you are in righteousness and life. You and I were taken out of the realm of the flesh and placed in the realm of the Spirit the moment that we were saved, but the flesh was not then taken out of us. That old sinful capacity is still with us this side of Heaven. We are saved people living in unsaved ("mortal") bodies. When we lose the unsaved body, we will lose the sin nature that belongs to it. This will ONLY happen at death or rapture.
When we are saved, a battle begins between our saved soul and our unsaved body. Paul writes of this battle that continues within us even after our salvation,
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do.
Rom 7:20 But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I working it out, but sin dwelling in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law: when I will to do the right, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
It CANNOT get any clearer than that. Those verses/context make it 100% clear that we still retain the sinful fallen nature after salvation.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace,
Eph 4:32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you.
Ahhhh...The ol' "unpardonable sin".:chew:
These words of this "warning" came from Jesus Christ while He walked among men in His earthly ministry. They were addressed to the religious leaders of the nation Israel. Their blasphemy against Him even when He hung on the Cross was forgiven by the Father in answer to the prayer, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).
But when at Pentecost, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, announced the return of Messiah on the condition of Israel's national repentance, these leaders instigated a persecution that reached its climax in the stoning of Stephen, a godly man, "full of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 7:54-60). It was here that the "unpardonable sin" was committed by Israel's leaders. The Third Person of the Trinity had been blasphemed and His pleadings through the Apostles ignored. This sin will never be forgiven.
In this age it is blessedly true that "we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7). Though all sin is unpardoned till it is forgiven, it is not unpardonable. Christ died for all sin. The penalty has been paid and God now offers eternal life as a gift to be received by faith.
:up:
You should jump down to the Hebrews 6 thread and explain the "unpardonable sin" to G'rulz as well!